Results 1 - 7 of 7
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 88998 | ||
I don't disagree with you here. However you have not addressed the topic of whether or not salvation can be forfeited or not. It seems like the topic of "once saved, always saved" is either being ignored, diverted, or left unaddressed, and unanswered. Neither did you comment on John 15:6 which I believe teaches that "once saved, always saved" is an unBibical teaching. Concerning the works topic Paul and James agree. See James 2:20, and Eph. 2:10 Also in Titus Paul had this to say concerning works. "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." Titus 3:8 I will await your comments on the following verses. John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. The word "abide" comes from the Greek word meno which means to remain. In the case here it means to remain connected to Christ the vine I remain convinced. "Once saved, always saved" teachings as are presented by many today are unBibical. New Creature |
||||||
2 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | ne14pool | 89022 | ||
New Creature, Further note in regards to John 15:6 speaking of destroying these branches: do you suppose he talking about the person or his bad fruit? I believe that he is talking about his fruit since this seems to be in line with the entire passage and in context with the topic which is about the branches that are "in Christ" and the main topic is bearing fruit. Verse 6 says, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." I think it is important to remember that the one that is the gardner is the Father and if it is the Father that is gathering the branches and casting them into the fire, that seems to contradict John 5:22 that says...the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son. I think that if you read John 15:6 in contrast with 1 Cor 3:12-15 it makes a lot more sense. The passage says, "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Notice that the he himself will be saved, but his (so-called) fruit was consumed. This fruit was the labor of his own flesh and it was not fruit that was done for the glory of God, but most likely it was done to be seen by man and for the glory of the man himself. We know that that man has received his reward. (Matt 6:16) John 15:6 can also be compared with Matt 5:13 where it says, "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." You have probably already considered all of these verses, but that is my take on this verse. I like how Pink ended his exposition on this verse with these heart searching words, He said....... "Here then is a most solemn warning and heart-searching prospect for every Christian. Either your life and my life is, as the result of continuous fellowship with Christ, bringing forth fruit to the glory of the Father, fruit which will remain; or, because of neglect of communion with Him, we are in immense danger of being set aside as His witnesses on earth, to bring forth only that which the fire will consume in a coming Day. May the Holy Spirit apply the words of the Lord Jesus to each conscience and heart." It is my prayer that when Christ does come back for us that He will he will find us faithful. Amen? In Christ....Doug |
||||||
3 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89286 | ||
I thought it might be helpful to include a comment on John 15:6 from Adam Clarkes Abridged Commentary on the Bible. "Our Lord in the plainest manner intimates that a person may as truly be united to Him as the branch is to the tree that produces it, and yet be afterwards cut off and cast into the fire, because he has not brought forth fruit to the glory of His God. No man can cut off a branch from a tree to which that branch was never united; it is absurd, and contrary to the letter and spirit of the metaphor, to talk of being "seemingly" in Christ - because this means nothing. If there was only a seeming union there could be only a seeming excision. So the matter is just where it began; nothing is done on either side, and nothing said to any purpose. He is cast forth. Observe that person who abides not in Christ in a believing, loving, obedient spirit, (1) is cut off from Jesus, having no longer any right or title to Him or to His salvation. (2) He is withered - deprived of all the influences of God's grace and Spirit. (3) He is gathered - becomes (through the judgment of God) again united with backsliders like himself and other workers of iniquity. And being abandoned to his own heart and Satan, he (4) is cast into the fire - separated from God's people, from God himself, and from the glory of His power. And (5) he is burned - is eternally tormented with the devil and his angels, and with all those who have lived and died in their iniquity. Love in Christ Jesus New Creature |
||||||
4 | Please provide responses to these verses | Luke 8:13 | ne14pool | 89315 | ||
NC, You won't be surprised that I totally disagree with Adam Clarke's exposition of John 15:6. It is clear Clarke interprets this judgement (casting into the fire) as the judgement for the sins of non-believers and those who could not muster up enough faith of their own. This is an unbiblical view and I totally disagree with this interpretation. As you are already aware, I believe this is the judgement of believers. It is not the judgement for their sins, but for their works. I think it is unfortunate that you feel that within yourself you had to do something to gain eternal life. You must believe this, if you feel you can do something to lose it. But eternal life is not YOUR work. It is the Work of God, within you. I have some challenges for you: I would like you to give me your perspective on the following verses which strongly support eternal security. Jer 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. NOTICE: ...so they will never turn away from me. What's your view on this verse? Here is another one for you: John 6:35-40 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID, "I shall not lose none of them that he has given me"? Here is another verse that I would like to hear your views on: Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- NOTE: To say that we can fall from grace is to say that God is not able to keep us from falling… That is unbiblical. It contradicts Jude 1:24. I look forward to your responses for the verses provided above. Thanks…. In Christ….Doug |
||||||
5 | Please provide responses to these verses | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89346 | ||
Doug First of all in John Chapter 15 it is said that people not works are cast into the fire to be burned. No where does John 15 indicate that this is works judgment. John 15:1-6 is plainly about those who do not abide (remain) in Christ the vine. To read anything else into that text is to alter the clear and plain meaning of Scripture. I suggest you take a closer look. Next you stated; "I think it is unfortunate that you feel that within yourself you had to do something to gain eternal life. You must believe this, if you feel you can do something to lose it. But eternal life is not YOUR work. It is the Work of God, within you." My work in salvation was once God turned the light on in my soul and spirit to follow through with the Bibical commands to repent and believe. God does not do our repenting or believing for us. repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15 except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3 Repent ye therefore, and be converted Acts 3:19 God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:30 So you see repenting is commanded of God. If you call doing what God asks us to do a work then you will have to discuss that with God since that is what His word says. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. We must believe also. God draws us to Himself, and enables to respond, but He neither repents or believes for us. And yes I also am aware that it is God's goodness that leads us to repentance, however there is not a single verse in Scripture that implicitly states that God does our repenting for us. Those who repent have their sins remitted, because of their faith in the shed blood of our Savior. Not because of what we can or might do, but because of what Christ did on the cross on our behalf. We merely believe the Biblical commands to repent and believe. Next you said: " have some challenges for you: I would like you to give me your perspective on the following verses which strongly support eternal security. Jer 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me." If you want to get into the Old Testament as well then you will have to reconcile that single verse with these other verses from the New testament 1 Sam.16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul Saul said ... God is departed from me , and answereth me no more, (1 Sam. 28:15) Then said Samuel, Why then, dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy. (1 Sam. 28:16) The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you 2 Chr. 15:2 because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you 2 Chr. 24:20 Ezek. 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever. (1 Chr. 28:9) I will even forsake you saith the Lord. (Jer. 23:33) And there are many others as well. Next you used John 6:35-40 this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. How then do you explain the fact that Judas who was numbered with the other 11 apostles was lost. In what sense is this verse true? Then you posted from Jude 24 says "He is able to keep us from falling" This only says that He is able to keep from falling those who continually believe and trust in Him by faith. Faith is a verb which denotes continuous action and believe. So does the Bible contradict itself. Not in my opinion it doesn't. Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture. Thats why "once saved, always saved" does not agree with the Bible. It just isn't Bibical in the way many denominations teach it these days. So will you believe clever theologians, or trust that God's word is the only true and accurate standard. In His service New Creature |
||||||
6 | Please provide responses to these verses | Luke 8:13 | ne14pool | 89451 | ||
NC, You said, God does not do our repenting or believing for us. So let me get this straight, YOU muster up the ablility to repent and believe? That is interesting when Scripture clearly tells us in 2 Tim 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. NOTICE: Who GRANTS them repentance? It is clear that God does. The word GRANT in the greek means... means to give. It is a gift of God. Who should I believe? I am sorry but I have to believe Scripture! Then read what Scripture says about whose work it is to believe... The Jews asked Jesus what THEY must do to do the works that God requires. Jesus response is very revealing. He did not answer what work they must do, but He told them what the work of God is. John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." NOTICE: In order for us to believe it takes a work of God. Once again there is Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, Granted means to receive as a gift of God's grace. You were given the faith to believe in Him. It is the gift of God. You didn't muster up your own faith. Please don't boast in YOUR faith before the Lord! Your faith is the work of God. Then you said, How then do you explain the fact that Judas who was numbered with the other 11 apostles was lost. In what sense is this verse true? Judas may have been numbered with the disciples, However, in John 13:18 Jesus made it clear that Judas was not one of his chosen ones. When he said, "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' The Bible does not contridict itself. Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture. That is why eternal security and the perseverance of the Saints is clearly taught in the Bible. Yours in Christ...Doug PS... Isn't your user name, New Creature come from 2 Cor 5:17? If this is true then don't you believe what it says? Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! NOTICE: The old has GONE! That means GONE! Not to come back again! It touches on Eternal Security! Very interesting!! |
||||||
7 | Please provide responses to these verses | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89476 | ||
Doug You said you have to believe Scripture. So then believe this, because it comes from God's word; Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: God commands all men everywhere to repent. Not my words. "In the things which God cannot do category is this; God cannot do our repenting for us. God has commanded all men to repent. It is a work which only they can do. It is morally impossible for one person to repent for another. Even Christ could not do this. He could die for us, but He cannot do our repenting for us. God in His mercy may incline us to repent (the goodness of God leads us to repentance) and by His inworking Spirit assist us to repent; but before we can be saved we must of our own free will repent toward God and believe in Jesus Christ. Another thing God cannot do; He cannot believe for us. Faith is a gift of God, to be sure, but whether or not we shall act upon that faith lies altogether the decision we must make using our free will. Repent and believe is the order. Faith will follow repentance, and salvation will be the outcome." (A.W. Tozer) Only those who by the goodness of God are led to repentance (Rom. 2:4) and follow through with God's command to repent (Acts 17:30) are granted the gift of repentance. (2 Tim. 2:25-26) So let me ask you one question; Did God do your repenting for you? Or did you personally need to repent of the sins you committed? Finally, It you still want to cling to the teaching of "once saved, always saved" then you will have to reconcile this from God's word with the rest of Scripture which you suppose supports that cherished teaching. But as you stated; "the Bible doesn't contradict itself" and by the way, I agree. So then since we both agree that the Bible never contradicts itself. Explain the following verses taken directly from the word of God. From the New Testament For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) From the Old Testament Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. In His Service New Creature |
||||||