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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 88849 | ||
Greetings Matt! Thanks for the question; I will do my best to answer your inquiry. First off, whenever I read a verse from Scripture and am trying to find out what the verse means, I need to look at the immediate context, the context the letter was written in, and look at the letter in light of the rest of Scripture, the whole council of God’s Word. In the immediate context, it seems clear to me that Peter is speaking to a body of believers, and is specifically discussing the topic of “false teachers”, or some translations have “false professors”. In the context of the whole letter, the letter reads like a admonition, a pleading by Peter to this body of believers to continue to show the fruits, the works that come by faith, and to persevere to the end. The reason why Peter is saying all of this is because there were false teachers within that fellowship. These teachers seemed to be teaching some pretty bad doctrine. For example, here are a few that can be drawn from the text: Somehow using Christian liberty as a license to sin, specifically sexual sin (2:14). They denied the Lord (2:1). They seemed to despise authority and “angelic beings” (2:10). Later, they denied and scoffed at the second coming of Christ (3:3-4) These seem to be just a few of the heretical teachings these false teachers were expounding. Notice also, as a set-up, at the end of chapter 1, Peter explains the difference between true and false prophets. We believe in prophecy from God Himself, in the person and work of Jesus Christ, not from “cunningly devised fables” (1:16 NKJV) of men. And then from this, Peter then begins to speak of the false teachers. Ok, so now we come to the verses in question. Notice that throughout the discourse, Peter is describing the teachings of these false professors and then gets to the point where he makes the statement that although they once had the knowledge of the Savior, they have now returned to their old ways, they have become entangled in sin again, they are like a dog going back to it’s vomit, which is a quote from Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog that returneth to his vomit, So is a fool that repeateth his folly.”(ASV 1901). So, in light of everything Peter lays out in the context of the letter, we have here a set of false teachers who once had escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Savior who are now back to their old ways, basically trampling underfoot the cross of Christ. Therefore we have to ask, were these false teachers ever really saved? From the text the only clue we have to go on is the fact that they escaped the world through their knowledge of the Savior. Does knowledge save? Faith in Christ alone saves, but simple knowledge really does nothing. Many people have knowledge about Christ, they know who He is, they may even follow His commandments, they think He is a great teacher, but the one thing these people don’t have is true saving faith. And from this passage of Scripture, I believe it is a serious stretch to say these false teachers, who, let’s face it, were very heinous in their teaching, were ever really saved in the first place. They showed no true fruits because Peter basically lays out what they were teaching and how they were acting, and it was not pretty. I realize much more could be written on this topic, but I will stop here because you asked me for my comments on this text of Scripture, and I have done the best I can with the limited space I have to work with. I will leave you with the following Scriptures to consider as well as an invitation to check out my other posts, #88279 and #88451 concerning the topic at hand. Please read these other posts and let me know what you think. Thank you for letting me share what God has laid upon my conscience!! To God be ALL the glory in the salvation of sinners! In Christ, Joe Is. 54:10; Jer. 32:40; Matt. 18:14; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:35, 6:37, 6:40, 6:47, 10:27-29; Rom. 5:8-10, 8:1, 8:29, 8:34-39; 1 Cor. 1:8-9; 2 Cor. 4:14, 5:5, Eph. 1:5, 1:13-14, 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb. 7:25, 9:12, 9:15, 10:14; 1 Pet 1:5; 1 John 2:19, 2:25; 2 John 5:11-13; Jude 24-25 PS- Just a few questions to ponder surrounding this topic: Can Christ lose a Christian? What is the nature of true, saving faith? Is true saving faith even ours to claim? When God makes a promise, do you believe He will follow through on His promise? Two passages to ponder: Col 2:12-14 and Hebrews 10:14. |
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2 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Mathew | 88985 | ||
Greeting Joe, I went through many of your post and read your comments on this subject. I see why you stand so firmly on your point of view. I agree with your interpretations of many of the scriptures people use to discredit the gift of faith and salvation as a free gift. However speaking of this verse 2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first. You stated that all we have to go by is that these people escaped the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Then you ask can knowledge save? Here is what I found in scripture Luk 1:77 to give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins: The fact that these people in 2Peter 2:20 had the knowledge of salvation, and escaped the pollutions of the world shows that they also must have obtained this through the remission of their sins. These people freely excepted and then freely turned away. Now it shall be worst for them to have known God and then turn away, then to never have been in the light at all. You ask if God will take away what he has freely given? I say "NO" absolutely not. Except there is one point I would like to bring up. Most men have not been given there reward yet. God said that his reward is coming with him on the last day. This reward is Salvation. When you have been given a glorified body then you truly have OBTAINED Salvation. Here are some scriptures to support my view. 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in Heaven for you 1Pe 1:5 by the power of God, having been kept through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time; Lam 3:26 It is good that one should hope for the salvation of Jehovah, even in silence. Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience. Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed. 1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen, you love; in whom not yet seeing, but believing in Him you exult with unspeakable joy, and having been glorified, 1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. You also ask if true saving faith is even ours to claim? I would say that all faith is given by God so "NO". It is Gods grace that he has written his laws on the tables of every mans heart to know the difference between right and wrong even unto death. Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life; Psalm 48:14 For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide even to death. Every man will die a sinner, or else we will have saved ourselves.Rom 3:10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; Rom 3:11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one." Christ redeemed all men from the power of the grave so that he could show mercy to whomever he choses to show mercy. Our faith has nothing to do with Gods mercy. But what about Gods promiss? Here is how a person should take Gods promiss according to scripture. Phi 3:11 if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 My brothers, I do not count myself to have taken possession, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind and reaching forward to the things before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. Phi 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Phi 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling. Your Brother in Christ MaTT |
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3 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 89667 | ||
Howdy Matt! I’ll try and be brief, but judging from my prior posts, that won’t happen! You said:“You stated that all we have to go by is that these people escaped the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Actually I didn’t say “full” knowledge, I said simply knowledge. That may be splitting hairs, but I think it is an important point. “The fact that these people in 2Peter 2:20 had the knowledge of salvation, and escaped the pollutions of the world shows that they also must have obtained this through the remission of their sins.” In the context of 2 Peter, to say these false teachers had a true saving knowledge of Christ is a stretch, based on the context. Based on the context of this passage, the false teachers were part of this visible church and heard the gospel preached. They, for all intensive purposes, from the vantage point of that first century church, believed the gospel. They did escape the defilements of the world, they were now in a church where the gospel is preached and the world was not glorified. But, you and I know true faith will produce fruits, and in 2 Peter 1:5-8 Peter lays out fruits that we should be diligently striving for in order to make our calling and election sure. Peter is talking about assurance of salvation here. It is obvious to me that the false teachers never practiced the fruits Peter was talking about. If they did, I don’t see it in the passage. Sure, they escaped the defilements of the world, but the passage never says they had all these fruits and had a full assurance of faith. All the passage says is that they had knowledge of the Savior, they escaped the defilements of the world and they had knowledge of righteousness. Again, in this context, Peter ties true saving knowledge with the fruits and the obedient diligence to practice those fruits listed in 2 Peter 1:5-8. These false teachers didn’t exhibit these fruits. Therefore, to say these teachers had remission of sins and were truly regenerated is a serious stretch, again, based on the context of the passage. “You ask if God will take away what he has freely given? I say "NO" absolutely not.” I don’t think I asked that question specifically, my question is if God makes a promise, does He follow through? I think, based on your answer above, you would say that God does come through on His promises. Would you agree? As well, the question “Can Christ lose a Christian?” did not seem to be answered. Maybe you did and I didn’t catch your point, in that case, I apologize. As well, I asked about the nature of true saving faith, which I think points directly to what the issue is at hand. The false teachers did not have true saving faith because their “faith”, according to the context itself, produced in the end only heresy! As to your discussion about rewards, I am not sure that is the topic we are discussing. The context of 2 Peter is about true believers and false teachers. Maybe rewards could be a topic covered in another thread! “You also ask if true saving faith is even ours to claim? I would say that all faith is given by God so "NO". It is Gods grace that he has written his laws on the tables of every mans heart to know the difference between right and wrong even unto death.” Well, I would have to say that true faith in Christ is a gift from God. Anybody can have faith in things, military, state, self, i.e. idols, but true saving faith in Christ comes from God (Heb. 12:2; Eph 2:8-10). I would reference Romans 1-3 for a discussion about sinful humanity knowing the law, knowing what God commands, but suppressing it and blaspheming God by their depraved minds and wicked actions. I don’t want to read too much into what you said there, so I will not continue down that road. The point I am making in asking the question is that if true saving faith is from God, He will perfect that faith, since He is the Author of that faith. Did the false teachers in 2 Peter have this kind of faith, a faith that God has authored and perfected? Please note, I am talking about true saving faith, not some self-centered faith that pagans have, but real faith, faith that looks only to Christ and nothing else for salvation. “Our faith has nothing to do with Gods mercy.” Matt, how can you say that our faith has nothing to do with God’s mercy? Hebrews 12:2 states that He is the author and finisher of our faith. He authored it and finished it, therefore saving faith is something He makes and gives to us, so we would say it is a gift from God. How does this NOT have anything to do with mercy? God showed mercy by giving us true saving faith, because left to ourselves, we would be groveling in the dark cursing at God about everything! The whole bible is about God’s mercy, and faith has everything to do with it! Check out Romans 3 and 4, Titus 3. I guess I am at a loss to find anywhere in the Bible where it says that faith has nothing to do with God’s mercy. In Christ, Joe |
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