Results 1 - 2 of 2
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Mathew | 88985 | ||
Greeting Joe, I went through many of your post and read your comments on this subject. I see why you stand so firmly on your point of view. I agree with your interpretations of many of the scriptures people use to discredit the gift of faith and salvation as a free gift. However speaking of this verse 2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first. You stated that all we have to go by is that these people escaped the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Then you ask can knowledge save? Here is what I found in scripture Luk 1:77 to give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins: The fact that these people in 2Peter 2:20 had the knowledge of salvation, and escaped the pollutions of the world shows that they also must have obtained this through the remission of their sins. These people freely excepted and then freely turned away. Now it shall be worst for them to have known God and then turn away, then to never have been in the light at all. You ask if God will take away what he has freely given? I say "NO" absolutely not. Except there is one point I would like to bring up. Most men have not been given there reward yet. God said that his reward is coming with him on the last day. This reward is Salvation. When you have been given a glorified body then you truly have OBTAINED Salvation. Here are some scriptures to support my view. 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in Heaven for you 1Pe 1:5 by the power of God, having been kept through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time; Lam 3:26 It is good that one should hope for the salvation of Jehovah, even in silence. Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience. Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed. 1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen, you love; in whom not yet seeing, but believing in Him you exult with unspeakable joy, and having been glorified, 1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls. You also ask if true saving faith is even ours to claim? I would say that all faith is given by God so "NO". It is Gods grace that he has written his laws on the tables of every mans heart to know the difference between right and wrong even unto death. Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life; Psalm 48:14 For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide even to death. Every man will die a sinner, or else we will have saved ourselves.Rom 3:10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; Rom 3:11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one." Christ redeemed all men from the power of the grave so that he could show mercy to whomever he choses to show mercy. Our faith has nothing to do with Gods mercy. But what about Gods promiss? Here is how a person should take Gods promiss according to scripture. Phi 3:11 if by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead. Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on, if I may lay hold of that for which I also was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phi 3:13 My brothers, I do not count myself to have taken possession, but one thing I do, forgetting the things behind and reaching forward to the things before, Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you. Phi 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. Phi 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling. Your Brother in Christ MaTT |
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2 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 89667 | ||
Howdy Matt! I’ll try and be brief, but judging from my prior posts, that won’t happen! You said:“You stated that all we have to go by is that these people escaped the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Actually I didn’t say “full” knowledge, I said simply knowledge. That may be splitting hairs, but I think it is an important point. “The fact that these people in 2Peter 2:20 had the knowledge of salvation, and escaped the pollutions of the world shows that they also must have obtained this through the remission of their sins.” In the context of 2 Peter, to say these false teachers had a true saving knowledge of Christ is a stretch, based on the context. Based on the context of this passage, the false teachers were part of this visible church and heard the gospel preached. They, for all intensive purposes, from the vantage point of that first century church, believed the gospel. They did escape the defilements of the world, they were now in a church where the gospel is preached and the world was not glorified. But, you and I know true faith will produce fruits, and in 2 Peter 1:5-8 Peter lays out fruits that we should be diligently striving for in order to make our calling and election sure. Peter is talking about assurance of salvation here. It is obvious to me that the false teachers never practiced the fruits Peter was talking about. If they did, I don’t see it in the passage. Sure, they escaped the defilements of the world, but the passage never says they had all these fruits and had a full assurance of faith. All the passage says is that they had knowledge of the Savior, they escaped the defilements of the world and they had knowledge of righteousness. Again, in this context, Peter ties true saving knowledge with the fruits and the obedient diligence to practice those fruits listed in 2 Peter 1:5-8. These false teachers didn’t exhibit these fruits. Therefore, to say these teachers had remission of sins and were truly regenerated is a serious stretch, again, based on the context of the passage. “You ask if God will take away what he has freely given? I say "NO" absolutely not.” I don’t think I asked that question specifically, my question is if God makes a promise, does He follow through? I think, based on your answer above, you would say that God does come through on His promises. Would you agree? As well, the question “Can Christ lose a Christian?” did not seem to be answered. Maybe you did and I didn’t catch your point, in that case, I apologize. As well, I asked about the nature of true saving faith, which I think points directly to what the issue is at hand. The false teachers did not have true saving faith because their “faith”, according to the context itself, produced in the end only heresy! As to your discussion about rewards, I am not sure that is the topic we are discussing. The context of 2 Peter is about true believers and false teachers. Maybe rewards could be a topic covered in another thread! “You also ask if true saving faith is even ours to claim? I would say that all faith is given by God so "NO". It is Gods grace that he has written his laws on the tables of every mans heart to know the difference between right and wrong even unto death.” Well, I would have to say that true faith in Christ is a gift from God. Anybody can have faith in things, military, state, self, i.e. idols, but true saving faith in Christ comes from God (Heb. 12:2; Eph 2:8-10). I would reference Romans 1-3 for a discussion about sinful humanity knowing the law, knowing what God commands, but suppressing it and blaspheming God by their depraved minds and wicked actions. I don’t want to read too much into what you said there, so I will not continue down that road. The point I am making in asking the question is that if true saving faith is from God, He will perfect that faith, since He is the Author of that faith. Did the false teachers in 2 Peter have this kind of faith, a faith that God has authored and perfected? Please note, I am talking about true saving faith, not some self-centered faith that pagans have, but real faith, faith that looks only to Christ and nothing else for salvation. “Our faith has nothing to do with Gods mercy.” Matt, how can you say that our faith has nothing to do with God’s mercy? Hebrews 12:2 states that He is the author and finisher of our faith. He authored it and finished it, therefore saving faith is something He makes and gives to us, so we would say it is a gift from God. How does this NOT have anything to do with mercy? God showed mercy by giving us true saving faith, because left to ourselves, we would be groveling in the dark cursing at God about everything! The whole bible is about God’s mercy, and faith has everything to do with it! Check out Romans 3 and 4, Titus 3. I guess I am at a loss to find anywhere in the Bible where it says that faith has nothing to do with God’s mercy. In Christ, Joe |
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