Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | bjanko | 459 | ||
You wrote: '2: God has predetermined that his plan of salvation will be carried out. This does not mean that he has predetermined who will and will not be saved.' My reply: That simply does not make any sense. How can the predetermined will of an all-powerful God NOT come to pass? You wrote: 'God wants everyone to be saved (If you need several versus to back this up, let me know). He provided the means for that to happen through the death and ressurection of Jesus. It is our choice whether to accept his Gift or not.' My reply: Eph. 2:1-2 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins" How do the spiritually dead choose anything? When's the last time you have seen a corpse make a choice o do anything else for that matter? John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This is pretty explicit. Sure God desires that all be saved, but He did not PROVIDE so that all will be saved. Since all will not be saved, then if you say that God PROVIDED atonement for all, then you are saying that the atonement which God has provided has FAILED. But a failing God is NOT the God of the Bible! It makes more sense to understand that, while God desires all will be saved, He only PROVIDED atonement FOR HIS PEOPLE whom He has elected from eternity past. As for the numerous verses you quoted: it is not proper to pick and choose numerous verses which support your view while ignoring all the verses which do not support your view. You seem to be ignoring all the verses which speak of election and God's will from before eternity and the fact that God is the ONLY acting party in the regeneration of the soul. What about the verses I have quoted? You simply say things like, "but that doesn't necessarily mean thus and such".... but your responses are really no answer; you are begging the question. My answer to all your verses is that we certainly do choose God: AFTER He has regenerated us and given us the gift of salvation. But as the Bible explicitly and clearly says, we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins and NO ONE comes to Jesus UNLESS the Father draws him. |
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2 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 463 | ||
Do you actually believe what you wrote? I said God's plan of salvation was predestined. That is, He knew it was going to happen and it will happen no matter what. However, individuals are not predestined to be saved. God wants all to be saved but knows that not all will accept his gift of Grace. God's Will will succeed no matter what man may do. 1 Tim 2:1-7 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. Please keep the verses you spout off in context. I have showed you many verses (in context) that talk about our choice and have showed you your verses (in context) that either have nothing to do with what you are using them for or could also be interpreted as free will. I have not seen one verse (taken in context) that says otherwise. Don't you wonder why there are so many verses that talk about "Free Will" and that the only verses Calvinists come up with are taken out of context and based on a faulty premise or that you have to twist the words of non-calvinists to imply things that were not stated? Please read the entire bible. Not just the verses that, on the surface, seem to fit you interpretation. Eph 2:1-2 - The "dead in transgressions and sin" is not a literal term. How could he be talking to them if they were dead? What he's telling the Ephesians is how they are no longer following the ways of the world (they are dead to those ways) but are now saved through the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. Later in that same chapter he tells us that the Gentiles used to be separte from God are now included in the promise of being saved through Jesus. As I stated previously: You mentioned John 6:44. I agree that no sinner can make the first move in the salvation process. Fortunately, God has already made the first move through Jesus. It's now up to us to accept this. Also, if you put John 6:44 in context and read the entire section, you'll see a whole different meaning. John 6:38-40 - tells us that Jesus is sent to do the Father's will which is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. John 6:44 in simply saying that no one is going to Heaven unless God Allows it. God wants everyone to be saved (this is backed up by other verses I'll supply if needed). John 6:45 "...EVERYONE who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." It doesn't say "only those I choose will come to me" John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." John 6:51 "...This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." He's saying that he will give his life for the world, not a elect group in the world. Another example, read the parable of the Lost Sheep. God didn't want any to be lost. If you need more verses about All having the opportinity for salvation, let me know. To close on, did Jesus die for everyone's sins or just some of the people? |
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3 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | bjanko | 465 | ||
You apparently did not read my post very carefully. For example, in citing Eph. 2:1 -- "dead in transgressions and sins" -- you made the point that it was not a literal term and then answered as though I claimed the verse referred to literal death. However, I specifically said "spiritually dead," which is how the apostle meant it. Spiritually dead is still dead, spiritually speaking, and so man cannot choose God. It's right there in black and white. You are not taking the words in their normal sense, but reading your view into them. You seem to have presupposed the correctness of your own view and begun with a bias against Calvinism and will accept nothing else. Rather than starting with what you would like to be true, you ought to consider what Scripture says to be true. (Whether Calvinism is true is irrelevant.) You also seem to not understand the term "predestined." That has the word "destiny" in it. It means that ones destiny is already decided. It does not mean that God knows what is going to happen in advance; God knowing in advance would be omniscience. If you do not know the meanings of these basic terms, how can you interpret the verses correctly? Finally, I notice that you have answered NONE of the questions I have posed to you. If you want to let us know your "verses," that's fine. But if you want dialogue, you need to respond to my questions as I have responded to yours. |
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4 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 470 | ||
Sorry, I thought I answered your questions. Please let me know what questions I haven't answered. By the way, I have posted may questions (and verses) asking how you would interpret them and have not received any answers. I do see that you are good at turning things around to fit what you want. Spiritually dead does not mean that a person cannot choose God. It simply means that that person is currently in a state that is not open to God. Take for example a "morally bankrupt" person or a person without morals. That doesn't mean that the person cannot choose to change his behavior to be a better person. The same goes for the Spiritally dead person. If that person hears about what Jesus can offer, they could choose to listen and believe. Yes, I'm fully aware of the meanings of "predestined" and "omniscience". I also understand that you are misapplying the term predestined to individuals being predestined rather than the correct interpretation that God's plan was predestined. The term "Elect" you mentioned somewhere is just another way of saying the believers. (today, we call them the "born-again" for example.) Also, I seriously looked into the Calvinistic belief and have talked with a "Calvinistic elder" at my church to try and see their views. Instead of just relying on what they said though, I researched the topic myself using the bible and the internet looking at it from various viewpoints (including that of the JW's). I'm sorry to say that I could not find a valid reason for interpreting the bible using the "Calvinistic Belief" or the JW's. |
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5 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | bjanko | 479 | ||
It simply sounds to me as if you are redefining many terms. I have answered your verses by arguing that mere verses are insufficient; they must be accompanied by the use of Scripture as a whole as the context in which to interpret them. I believe you, like all Arminians, are not setting all your "verses" in light of the whole of Scripture. So rather than parroting verses out of context, we must also be able to understand and explain the rationale behind them and how they must necessarily all "add up." If you want to answer my questions, you can review my previous posts and simply look for the sentences which end with this symbol: ? But frankly, I think it would be much more important for you to answer them FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT than for mine. I'm glad you have researched this topic. I feel you need to research it further, but that is up to you. As for me, I think I have answered you fairly well already. I do not think you have thought much about the issues I raised, but I really do not have more to say on the issue. By reviewing the previous posts, you can see what I have stated and WHY I have stated it. |
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6 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 506 | ||
I see that you are the typical brainwashed person that only believes what he has been told and is afraid to examine the evidence for yourself. If you'd bother to check the previous postings you would find that I did in fact answer your questions and showed you how your took your passages out of context to twist them to your way of thinking. I also noticed that you completely disregarded most of my questions and passages that talk very explicitly about "free will". You say that you answered my verses (actually there God's verses) by arguing that mere verses are insufficient and must be accompanied by the use of Scripture as a whole in context. I showed you your verses in context and how they have nothing to do with what you pretend to be accurate. You however have not shown me A SINGLE interpretation of one of the verses I listed about how God wants all to be saved, how it's our choice to accept the Gift of Grace that God offered, how it could be possible to renounce your salvation. And as far as you saying that I have not thought much about the issues you raised could not be farther from the truth. That's the problem. I have thought a lot about the Calvinistic issues and have found that if you ignore the majority of the bible, then it holds up. Calvinists seem to think that since the Bible doesn't use the term "Free Will" then it must not exist. Unfortunatly, you also miss all the examples (new and old testiment) that talk about it as our choice. God didn't put puppets here on earth, he put living, breathing, thinking humans here that would by their own human will choose to worship Him. You would have us believe that God created us and decided who would worship him. I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way when I read the Bible and all the things it says. Of course, my bible is more than just a few verses from Ephesians and Romans. May God open your eyes and heart so that you may continue to grow. |
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7 | Predetermined or Free Will | Luke 8:13 | bjanko | 512 | ||
I'm sorry to see that you refuse to deal with the issue. | ||||||