Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 88938 | ||
Hank You say I must be advocating salvation by works. Scripture plainly says "faith without works is dead" James 2:17,20 Where faith is present, works must also be present. Secondly the fact the new life is called "eternal" does not guarantee that it can or cannot be forfeited. "The fact life is "eternal" does not prove we cannot lose it. "Eternal" describes the nature of the life. It has nothing to do with whether it can or cannot be lost. "One of the most commonly presented arguments given in defense of the teaching of "once saved always saved" goes like this: When one gets saved, he receives eternal life. If that life could be lost, it wouldn't be eternal! Therefore, once a person is saved, he is always saved. Eternal life was eternal even before a saved person ever possessed it. Does it not follow then, that eternal life will still remain eternal, even if one doesn't continue to possess it?" "hath everlasting life" John 5:24 is in the present tense. I don't see this as speaking in the future tense Concerning John 10:27-30 see my replys to others concerning that text. Same with Rom. 8:31-39. Concerning Eph. 4:30 Why the admonition to "grieve not the Holy Spirit" if their is no danger? I can probably guess the answer to that. I have heard it all before. "We are never in danger of losing salvation, but you can lose rewards" I don't see support for that line of thinking either. Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them. Yes He truly is able. Ability does not mean absolutely will. Once saved does God turn you into a robot? I have heard the answer to that to. You will probably say. "No, but God creates the desire to not go astray" That however doesn't answer the question about those who have departed from the faith. I know people that once had a zeal for the Lord and loved God's people, and by any evidence given were at one time truly saved. Some became Bible teachers and were in positions of leadership. They no longer have any desire or hunger to serve God. I have a neighbor who God at one time used to lead others to Christ. He also no longer attends church, and He refuses to even talk about spiritual matters any longer. Many people like this fall through the cracks, without notice to many. Then people excuse them by saying, "they were never really saved to begin with" Hogwash! That in my opinion is an excuse church people use to protect their revered "once saved, always saved" teaching. Without ever really getting to the truth of the matter. So Scripture plus experience tell me that "once saved, always saved" is simply UnBibical. I remain unconvinced by the arguments I have seen so far. There are plently of other born-again Christians who also disagree with the "once saved, always saved" teaching of the day as is presented by many. Someone once said: "In every generation the majority of people are probably wrong" If "once saved, always saved" is true, why does God's word say John 15:6 If a man abide (Greek meno meaning remain) not in me, he is cast forth (cut off in some versions) as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Give me solid Bibical proof. Still waiting New Creature |
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2 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | nivlac5 | 88994 | ||
New Creature, I anticipated your quoting of James 2 and delt with it on my last response but had to edit it because I was over on word limit. So lets deal with James 2 shall we. First of all do you believe that God speaks in a forked toungue? Or that scripture contradicts itself? Or that Paul is schizophrenic? If your answer to any of these is yes, we have a different problem to deal with. The common passage quoted by works/salvation folks is James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Now I will agree,if this was the entire bible and we had no other inspired scripture then one could only conclude that salvation is a joint venture of faith and works. But this is the point that we have been trying to make, that no scripture exist in a vacuum! God calls us to "rightly divide the word of truth" 2Tim2:15 So the question arises, what is James saying in light of the abundance of scripture that appears,on the surface, to say the opposite. Romans4, Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9,Roman 1,Gal 3:6,etc. Notice that in verse 23 its says Abraham was made RIGHTEOUS BY BELIEF/FAITH,and thereby had peace with God.Righteouss,simply meaning to be right before God, not guilty. You see this same language in Genesis and Romans 1. Since it has already been established through the rest of scripture that it is Christ in us that produces fruit, fruit will naturally follow. So too, will works. If you are a child of God, works will be produced, because works are a natural outpouring of true saving faith. And as verse 26 rightly says, faith w/o works is dead. Why? because a said faith cannot produce true works/fruit, only a true faith can. So you may ask how is it that Abraham and Rahab were "justified" by works,vs 24-25? Justification before God has already been established at the cross. Christ, yelled tetelisti, paid in full, our debt of sin. So what can this mean? Simply, that one way we recognize a believer is by his works. See vs 18. This is "justification" before man, not God. Do you see why scripture cannot exist in a vacuum? The sum of James 2 is that man is justified by faith alone, but a faith, that is not alone.Our works testify to our saving faith. I might add that works is not restricted to action and benevalonce to others, but also includes correct doctrine.Titus 2:7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified. May we worship Him with our heart, soul and mind. In Christian love, Brad |
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3 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 88998 | ||
I don't disagree with you here. However you have not addressed the topic of whether or not salvation can be forfeited or not. It seems like the topic of "once saved, always saved" is either being ignored, diverted, or left unaddressed, and unanswered. Neither did you comment on John 15:6 which I believe teaches that "once saved, always saved" is an unBibical teaching. Concerning the works topic Paul and James agree. See James 2:20, and Eph. 2:10 Also in Titus Paul had this to say concerning works. "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." Titus 3:8 I will await your comments on the following verses. John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. The word "abide" comes from the Greek word meno which means to remain. In the case here it means to remain connected to Christ the vine I remain convinced. "Once saved, always saved" teachings as are presented by many today are unBibical. New Creature |
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4 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | ne14pool | 89021 | ||
New Creature, I wanted to share with you a portion of an expostion by a great preacher who once wrote in reference to John 15:6... But what is meant by, "Men gather them, and cast into the fire, and they are burned"? Observe, first, the plural pronouns. It is not "men gather him and cast into the fire, and he is burned," as it would most certainly have been had an unbeliever, a mere professor, been in view. The change of number here is very striking, and evidences, once more, the minute accuracy of Scripture. "Unless any one abide in me, he is east forth as a branch, and men gather them and cast into the fire and they are burned." The "them" and the "they" are what issues from the one who has been cast forth "as a branch." And what is it that issues from such a one—what but dead works: "wood, hay, stubble"! and what is to become of his "dead works." 1 Corinthians 3:15 tells us: "If any man’s work shall be burned (the very word used in John 15:6!), he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Lot is a pertinent example: he was out of fellowship with the Lord, he ceased to bear fruit to His glory, and his dead works were all burned up in Sodom; yet he himself was saved! In Christ...Doug |
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5 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89028 | ||
Doug Doug I find you intrepretation of John 15 to be faulty simply because John 15:6 specifically states: JohN 15:6 If a MAN abide not in me, HE (not it, or they as you suggest) is cast forth as a branch The plain reading of this verse is clear. Don't try to complicate it. New Creature |
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6 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | ne14pool | 89044 | ||
NC, This was not my interpretation, but I agree with what it is expounding. However, I believe you're missing the main point of this article. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. We have to read this verse in context. What is the topic of the first part of John 15? There is no doubt that the context is "bearing fruit", well we know that only Christians can bear true fruit that remains. I believe you are taking this verse out of context if you are attempting to make the topic suddenly change to salvation. That is not what is being discussed. The context is fruit bearing. Compare the first part of John 15 with 1 Cor 3:11-15 where it speaks again of good fruit and bad fruit... it says, "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." NOTICE: The that he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping THROUGH the flames. Even believers will pass through the consuming fire of God's judgement when it comes to our works. If they are wood, hay and stubble (a.k.a. bad fruit not done on the foundation of Christ) then they will be consumed and in the fire like a dead branch, however if they are gold, silver or costly stones they will not be consumed but will pass through the fire along with the individual who passes through the fire even if he didn't have any or much fruit, he will make it through the fire. That is scriptural and I want to warn you to seriously consider what is being said here. In Christ...Doug PS Please read my posting that was made Fri 07/11/03, at 2:37am. It may shed further light upon this topic. |
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7 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 89119 | ||
Doug I find it sad that you feel you need to bring in a rewards verse to attempt to alter the plain teaching of the verses in John 15 Lets look at John 15:1-6 John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman Jesus says He is the true vine, and He says His Father is the husbandman (or vine dresser) John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. In the above verse, you will find mentioned two types of branches. (1)It is mentioned of the first type of branch which is described in the above verse. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit. Take notice that it says "every branch IN me (in Jesus) that bears not fruit. These branches are IN Him (in Christ). If any man be in Christ he is a new creature (see 2 Cor. 5:17). But although this first type of branch is IN Him it is said of them they these are those which do not bear fruit. Remember however they are in Him. (2) The second type of branch mentioned in the same verse, are those which bear fruit, these branches are purged, meaning pruned, so that they may bring forth even more fruit. John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Above is the command to remain (abide) in Him. There is no hope of bearing fruit unless you REMAIN in Him. Why the command to REMAIN or abide, then if there is no danger? John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing In the above verse again we see that they are told they must abide (REMAIN) in Him, and then we will bear fruit. Fruit is the product of us, the branches, abiding or REMAINING connected to Jesus our vine Jesus says He is the vine, and we are the branches which are connected to the vine (Jesus). Jesus says he that remains in Him, and He in him, speaking of a unilateral relationship between the believer and Himself, brings forth much fruit. Without remaining connected to the vine (Jesus) we cannot bear fruit. John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. In the above verse we see that if a MAN remain not in Him, HE is cast forth (meaning cut off)and HE becomes withered, and men gather them (the branches that do not bear fruit) and cast them (us the branches into the fire and they are burned) You cannot continue to take John 15 out of context to the extent you have been doing to attempt to support the unBibical teaching of "once saved, always saved" The verses in John deal with people who are called branches, and it is people, who get cut off and burned in the fire in this verse, not works or bad fruit. The verses you use to try to explain away or alter the text of John 15 do not in any way work. There are plently of over verses in Scripture that you could better use to attempt to support the false teaching of "once saved, always,saved" other than 1 Cor. 3:11-15. Actually if you continue to read where you left off in 1 Cor. Chapter 3 you will find the following text. 1 Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are So why did you stop at verse 15? Love in Christ New Creature |
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