Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | New Creature | 88803 | ||
Greetings John I wish I had more time on my hands to write in detail all I have learned about this touchy topic. I have studied my Bible in detail, and must conclude that what I have previously stated concerning this topic is accurate. I don't mean to sound like a know it all, if thats how I come off I apologize to you. And what I am about to say next may anger you and others and even seem arogant, but from my experience, and prayerful study of God's word, the only way one can hold to the unBibical teaching of "once saved, always saved" as is being presented today by many, would be to have a pre-conceived bias towards a certain denominations teaching and revered theology. I wish I had more time, but I have so many other responsibilities to attend to in service to the Lord. Maybe in the near future, if I find more free time on my hands I can write a lengthy composition to you describing in detail the verses you inquire about, as well as other verses and portions of Scripture when taken in proper context, and not seen through the microscope of denominations can be brought to an orthodox light, to any person with an un-biased approach, which is how I am sure you do, and will approach this topic. Be patient for more from me on this in other articles. I am sure that we are both brothers in the Lord Jesus Christ, even if we do disagree here. In His service New Creature |
||||||
2 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 88807 | ||
Greetings New Creature! I apologize for jumping right into the middle of this thread! I respect your words and the fact that you are a busy person, so I will not keep you long. You have stated that the idea that a Christian’s salvation is secure is un-biblical. It seems (correct me if I am wrong) that the reason you state for believing this is through prayerful study of the Word. That is great! ;-) Lets come and reason from the Word!! As well, you state that folks who believe that a Christian cannot lose salvation are simply imposing pre-conceived teachings of certain denominations onto the Scriptures. Let me assure you, there are many people who believe things about the Word simply because their church teaches it, but there and many people as well, like me, who believe in this teaching because of what the Scriptures teach. I once believed a true, regenerate Christian could lose salvation, and I really believed it with all my heart! But just because my heart believed it does not make it true (Jer. 17:9). What makes a teaching true is whether the whole council of God’s Word teaches it. Therefore, I would argue from the Scriptures that a true, regenerate Christian cannot lose salvation. In fact, if a person is truly saved and is truly a new creation, they will not have the desire to leave the flock because they know their Shepherd, they will follow the Shepherd all of their days (John 10:14). Rather than type a huge post, I would encourage you to check out posts #88279 and #88451 where I have laid out some thoughts from the Word about this issue. I really hope you check them out and get back to me! If you want, you can send me an email, it’s in my profile. Many blessings to you New Creature!! ;-) In Christ, Joe |
||||||
3 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Mathew | 88820 | ||
Greetings Joe, If I may just comment on a statement you made in your post to New Creature. You stated that "if a person is truly saved and is truly a new creation, they will not have the desire to leave the flock because they know their Shepherd."But in 2Pe 2:20-22 I read: For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first. 2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2Pe 2:22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire. From these verses it seems to me that these people had escaped sin through the power and knowledge of the Savior Jesus Christ. But at some point desired to willingly turn from there Savior. The once washed sow has again willingly turned away from God. Could you please explain your view on this text. MaTT |
||||||
4 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 88849 | ||
Greetings Matt! Thanks for the question; I will do my best to answer your inquiry. First off, whenever I read a verse from Scripture and am trying to find out what the verse means, I need to look at the immediate context, the context the letter was written in, and look at the letter in light of the rest of Scripture, the whole council of God’s Word. In the immediate context, it seems clear to me that Peter is speaking to a body of believers, and is specifically discussing the topic of “false teachers”, or some translations have “false professors”. In the context of the whole letter, the letter reads like a admonition, a pleading by Peter to this body of believers to continue to show the fruits, the works that come by faith, and to persevere to the end. The reason why Peter is saying all of this is because there were false teachers within that fellowship. These teachers seemed to be teaching some pretty bad doctrine. For example, here are a few that can be drawn from the text: Somehow using Christian liberty as a license to sin, specifically sexual sin (2:14). They denied the Lord (2:1). They seemed to despise authority and “angelic beings” (2:10). Later, they denied and scoffed at the second coming of Christ (3:3-4) These seem to be just a few of the heretical teachings these false teachers were expounding. Notice also, as a set-up, at the end of chapter 1, Peter explains the difference between true and false prophets. We believe in prophecy from God Himself, in the person and work of Jesus Christ, not from “cunningly devised fables” (1:16 NKJV) of men. And then from this, Peter then begins to speak of the false teachers. Ok, so now we come to the verses in question. Notice that throughout the discourse, Peter is describing the teachings of these false professors and then gets to the point where he makes the statement that although they once had the knowledge of the Savior, they have now returned to their old ways, they have become entangled in sin again, they are like a dog going back to it’s vomit, which is a quote from Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog that returneth to his vomit, So is a fool that repeateth his folly.”(ASV 1901). So, in light of everything Peter lays out in the context of the letter, we have here a set of false teachers who once had escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Savior who are now back to their old ways, basically trampling underfoot the cross of Christ. Therefore we have to ask, were these false teachers ever really saved? From the text the only clue we have to go on is the fact that they escaped the world through their knowledge of the Savior. Does knowledge save? Faith in Christ alone saves, but simple knowledge really does nothing. Many people have knowledge about Christ, they know who He is, they may even follow His commandments, they think He is a great teacher, but the one thing these people don’t have is true saving faith. And from this passage of Scripture, I believe it is a serious stretch to say these false teachers, who, let’s face it, were very heinous in their teaching, were ever really saved in the first place. They showed no true fruits because Peter basically lays out what they were teaching and how they were acting, and it was not pretty. I realize much more could be written on this topic, but I will stop here because you asked me for my comments on this text of Scripture, and I have done the best I can with the limited space I have to work with. I will leave you with the following Scriptures to consider as well as an invitation to check out my other posts, #88279 and #88451 concerning the topic at hand. Please read these other posts and let me know what you think. Thank you for letting me share what God has laid upon my conscience!! To God be ALL the glory in the salvation of sinners! In Christ, Joe Is. 54:10; Jer. 32:40; Matt. 18:14; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:35, 6:37, 6:40, 6:47, 10:27-29; Rom. 5:8-10, 8:1, 8:29, 8:34-39; 1 Cor. 1:8-9; 2 Cor. 4:14, 5:5, Eph. 1:5, 1:13-14, 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb. 7:25, 9:12, 9:15, 10:14; 1 Pet 1:5; 1 John 2:19, 2:25; 2 John 5:11-13; Jude 24-25 PS- Just a few questions to ponder surrounding this topic: Can Christ lose a Christian? What is the nature of true, saving faith? Is true saving faith even ours to claim? When God makes a promise, do you believe He will follow through on His promise? Two passages to ponder: Col 2:12-14 and Hebrews 10:14. |
||||||
5 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | gracefull | 88855 | ||
"So, in light of everything Peter lays out in the context of the letter, we have here a set of false teachers who once had escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Savior who are now back to their old ways" I am taking neither side of this subject, but as I read your post I did have one observation.. The above scripture does not indicate that these had mere knowledge about or a religious understanding of, but states that these 'escaped the defilements of this world'. That sounds like salvation to me. 2 Peter 1:2-4 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in (2) the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the God's nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. It is through knowledge of Him (spiritual revelation and not mere mental facts) that producs His character in us, His divine nature. These scripture indicate this is a process of becoming because verse 4 says THROUGH THE PROMISES (plural so not just The Promise as in Jesus' sin offering) we come to share in God's nature and escape the corruption which evil desires have brought into the world. In light of these verses one must ask, is Peter saying these have been partakers of the promises that form the divine nature which enables us to escape the corruption that is in this world? If indeed it is only THROUGH this type of KNOWLEDGE that one can escape.. 2 Peter 2:15 CJB These peple have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Bil'am Ben-B'or.. So, is it possible to having once tasted the grace of God to actually chose to turn back and not merely backslide..but to go to enemy camp against God? God knows! God bless |
||||||
6 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 88896 | ||
Greetings gracefull! Thank you for your comments! Maybe a couple parables of the Lord Jesus Christ will help in the discussion, they have certainly helped me in the time I have studied this topic. Matthew 25:14-30, the parable of the talents. In this parable, the servants were each given a measure of talents while the master was gone. Upon the master’s return we see that the first two servants were obedient and did what the master wanted, they invested their talents and gave back more to the master than what the master had given them. The master then rewarded them equally, not basing the rewards on the talents, but on the heart of obedience. The hearts of the first two servants were in humble obedience to their master, and the master was very pleased! Then comes the third servant. Rather than invest, he just dug a hole in the ground, hid his talent, and waited for the mater’s return. When the master returned, the servant gave an excuse, saying he knew the master was a hard man, so he was afraid and then gave the one talent back. What was the master’s response? Well, let’s just say he was not pleased. He accused the servant of being lazy and being afraid of his master, therefore the master threw the servant into outer darkness (We know Christ would never throw a regenerate believer into outer darkness…). So, we have here three servants, all given a measure of talent. Two were obedient; the other was not and was punished. What this shows is the hypocrisy of the third servant, he never really knew his master, for if he truly knew his master, he would have shown the obedience of the first two servants. Therefore, he is exposing himself to the truth that he was a fraud, and the master knew this and punished him for it. How this ties into 2 Peter is simple. The false teachers showed no obedience to Christ. They clearly were part of this body of believers and partook of the blessings that come with being in a body of believers (i.e. the visible church). But, ultimately they showed no obedience to Christ and it showed in their sinful teachings and actions. 2 Peter is clearly divided between the first chapter, in which the subject is true believers, and the second chapter which deals with the false teachers, people who never really knew the true Savior. The second parable is the parable of the wheat and tares. This clearly states that in the visible church, there are people who are not true believers, the tares, among the true followers of Christ, the wheat. I think this parable is very clear in it’s teaching that there are folks who claim to be Christians, but their hearts are not truly regenerated. To answer your question, it is most certainly possible for people to partake of the blessing s of Christian fellowship. In fact, it is possible to accept the principles of the Gospel. BUT, there are fruits and there is obedience that comes with following Christ. I am not saying works salvation, by no means! My point is that the mark of regeneration is that we love God’s law and we are obedient to Christ (Heb. 8:10). The following quote is taken from a work on this subject by Loraine Boettner. It synthesizes well the point I am trying to make: “Mere church membership, of course, is no guarantee that the persons are real Christians. Not every member of the Church militant will be a member of the Church triumphant. To answer certain purposes, they make an outward profession of the Gospel, which obliges them for a time to be outwardly moral and to associate themselves with the people of God. They appear to have true faith and continue thus for a while. Then either their sheep's clothing is stripped off, or they throw it off themselves, and return again to the world. If we could see the real motives of their hearts, we would discover that at no time were they ever actuated by a true love of God. They were all this while goats, and not sheep, ravening wolves, and not gentle lambs. Hence Peter says of them, "It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had been washed to wallowing in the mire," 2 Peter 2:22. They thereby show that they never belonged to the number of the elect.” (http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/14.htm) I hope this has been of some help to you. Please check out my other posts on this topic at #88279 and #88451. Let me know what you think! ;-) In Christ, Joe |
||||||
7 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | gracefull | 88966 | ||
Hi Joe, thank you for the observations of these parables. However, this does not address the observation in my post. IF the teaching of eternal security for the believer is fact, then the passage in 2 Peter 1 must be addressed. And in studying scripture for truth it must be addressed without preconceived ideas, objectively. Thank you again for the observations of the parables. God bless |
||||||
8 | One example of loosing salvation NT | Luke 8:13 | Joseph3 | 89663 | ||
Greetings gracefull! I want to apologize for not answering your question, please accept my apology. I’ll try and answer more directly this time. But, do keep in mind those parables, they have helped me when understanding this portion of Scripture. I think your point is that the same knowledge that the audience Peter is addressing in chapter one is the same knowledge that the false professors had, therefore because they all had the same knowledge of the Lord, they all must have been saved. This is what I gather from your post, but correct me if I am wrong. You quote 2 Peter 1:2-4. So, let’s continue onto the rest of chapter 1 and into chapter 2. I touched on this in my prior post, you may remember. Peter, in the rest of chapter 1, specifically vs. 5-11 describes the logical progression of growing in faith, producing fruit. If you read these verses, Peter lays out a list of attributes in which we as people who profess Christ are to strive for, like: virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. Peter then states that if you have these things, you will not be barren or unfruitful in your knowledge of Christ. Peter then makes the point to continue to be diligent lest we lose assurance of our salvation, which he then comes to his conclusion in verse 10. Peter states “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make you calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.” The point that Peter is making is that if we practice the above list of fruits, diligently striving to be obedient to Christ, we will be sure of our calling and election, i.e. salvation, and we will never stumble. Never is a strong word!! (Note, God is sure who His elect are and the eternal security He gave them (Rom. 8:31-39), but a professing Christian may not always have assurance, this is the area Peter is dealing with…). So, from this Peter them moves into chapter 2 where he deals with the false teachers, who, even though they have the knowledge of Christ, DO NOT produce the fruit that Peter lists in vs. 5-8. They slander Christ, they practice sexual immorality, they deny that Christ will comes back, they abuse liberty in Christ, on and on they simply trample underfoot the cross of Christ. Therefore, they show themselves to be hypocrites, false professors that never strived to be obedient to Christ. A good cross reference to this would be 1 John 2:19. I think the next point you were asking about was the subject of escaping the defilements of the world, escaping the corruption of the world. I don’t think this is too hard to understand. When a person enters a visible body of believers, like a local church, that person is escaping the stench of the world. They come to a church and hear the gospel preached, they have escaped the world, they are in the care of the church, where the defilements of the world won’t be glorified. Do they truly believe? Do they have a desire to follow Christ in humble obedience? We don’t know, we can only tell by their fruits, that’s all, and that is the point Peter is making. These false teachers came into this body of believers, and for all intensive purposes believed the gospel. But, as we see in chapter 2, it has become terribly clear these false professors never truly believed because their fruits are flat out wicked. They denied Christ! That is the classic definition of an apostate (Luke 11:24-26, 12:47, 48; 1 Cor. 10:1-12; Heb. 3:12-18, 6:6, 10:26; Jude 4-6). To top it off, Peter describes these false teachers as dogs going back to their vomit. This picture shows how someone could get rid of the worldly defilements, i.e. the vomit, yet because they never truly believed, they would go back to that vomit!! As well, a sow; which is a pig, swine, or a hog. What is the nature of a pig? You can clean the outside, but inside it’s true nature is for the mud, the dirt, the slop. I could spray a hog clean, but in time he’ll head back to the mud pit. This picture shows that the false teachers’ nature NEVER CHANGED, they where never regenerated, they never truly believed Christ. They put a façade of being believers, but in time their true nature was exposed, their outside was “clean” for a time, but their inward nature was still corrupt. Ok, I owe you an apology. I told you I would be short, and I was not. Please forgive! : ) I hope I have been of some help. Greetings… In Christ, Joe |
||||||