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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How do you then interpret the verses... | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 321 | ||
How do you then interpret the verses I listed (and the many others) that talk about "our choice"? I've talked to other Calvinists and they all ignore the verses about our choice in the Bible and quote out a few verses that can be interpreted to fit their needs. The "Free Will" theory holds up throughout the Bible while the "Predestined" theory holds up only in a few parts of the Bible and each of these parts can also be interpreted using the "Free Will" theory. ---------------------------------- You mentioned John 6:44. I agree that no sinner can make the first move in the salvation process. Fortunately, God has already made the first move through Jesus. It's now up to us to accept this. Also, if you put John 6:44 in context and read the entire section, you'll see a whole different meaning. John 6:38-40 - tells us that Jesus is sent to do the Father's will which is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. John 6:44 in simply saying that no one is going to Heaven unless God Allows it. God wants everyone to be saved (this is backed up by other verses I'll supply if needed). John 6:45 "...EVERYONE who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." It doesn't say "only those I choose will come to me" John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." John 6:51 "...This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." He's saying that he will give his life for the world, not a elect group in the world. ------------------------------------- Eph 1:4-5,11. Again, put it in context. God predestined us as a whole not a group to have the opportunity to be saved. When it talks about us being predestined for foreknew, it's talking about God's plan - that through Jesus we can be saved. When it talks about the Elect, that's simply another way to talk about the people that have accepted Jesus. Today, we use the terms Christian, born-again, believers, etc... Back to Ephesians, at the end of chapter 1, Paul tells them that they were included in Christ when they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. In other words, when they heard about Jesus, they were included in God's plan. Paul next states that "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,..." Notice the "Having believed" -- this implies that they had a choice to believe or not. ------------------------------------ A couple other question to ponder: If God chooses only some people to be saved and not others and we have no control over that then why did Adam and Eve eat the fruit? Why did God flood the world to remove all the evil people? Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? If God decides alone who will and will not go to Heaven, why did these things (and others) happen? But if God wants everyone to be saved, but through his great love allows us to make the choice, then these things are easily explained. |
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2 | How do you then interpret the verses... | Luke 8:13 | kalos | 352 | ||
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH ABOUT ELECTION? (continued from previous message) Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them. But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world. If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God. The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice. For further study: John MacArthur, The Love of God (Dallas: Word, 1996). J. I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1961). © 2000 Grace to You . . . (article by John MacArthur at www.gty.org - listed in Issues and Answers archives) |
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3 | How do you then interpret the verses... | Luke 8:13 | jg8ball | 358 | ||
Thank you for the list of Calvinistic views (I've seen them several times now). What I'm wondering though is why you (or other Calvinists) will not discuss what I've submitted earlier. Instead, all I ever get is the same list of verses which when taken out of context point to what you would have me believe. I have looked at this from your viewpoint and tried to see how it fits in. I've even talked with a person from my church (which happens to have many calvinists) but have found too many holes in the theory. If you can offer any sound evidence I would like to hear it. Also, have you actually read the verses in context (that is -- not just the verses but the whole chapter, or better yet the books they reside in) or is this just what someone has told you is right and that was good enough for you? I don't mean to sound harsh but what I'm getting at (and this may or may not apply to you) is that you have to read the Word for yourself. Be open to different interpretations. Pray about it. Look at who the book was written to or for. Look at what the author says in other areas. Decide for yourself if what you have been taught is accurate. Be willing to question your beliefs if you find something contradictary to what the Bible teaches. A good example of this is a friend of mine that was raised a Jehovahs Witness. After showing him parts of the Bible and having him look at it from different view points, he's finding inconsistancies with what he was taught. |
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