Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5934 | ||
You didn't address anything I said about Saul or Jonah or Jeremiah. I also do not see the threat of the church dying out in an Arminian wordlview to be a "petty matter," and I don't think you really believe that, either. I am not trying to corner you, Nolan. If Arminianism is truly what is revealed in the entire biblical text, I will accept it. I need to be shown it, because I certainly don't see it myself. My own thinking itself did not move to Calvinism until a couple of years ago, because upon examining it (and not some straw man set up by its opponents), I became convinced that it offered the view consistent with the Bible, and answered a great deal of the questions I had regarding my previous views. If you do not have immediate answers to my questions, Nolan, that is fine. I am not in a rush here. I am simply pointing out what I consider to be serious flaws in Arminian thinking. We all should examine our views and let them be directed by the word of God itself. Take the time to think about the answers to these questions. Ask other Arminians you know how they would answer these questions. However, by no means IGNORE them and leave them unanswered, because I think we would both agree that God has not left his nature to be some "guessing game" where we do not know how he operates. If you come up with Arminian answers, please share them with me! May God bless you and lead us both into a complete knowledge of his revealed truth. --Joe! |
||||||
2 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 6323 | ||
Hello Joe, you asked about Saul, Jonah and Jeremiah.. In each case, God in His sovereignty knew that each person that you mentioned would be 'set apart' for His service and accomplish a special mission for His purpose. However, God knew this BEFORE they ever came to a knowledge of salvation. I think that you too often are confusing salvation with election since salvation must come before 'election'. Jeremiah and Jonah both 'believed' God and accomplished their tasks through faith. But they gained approval by their faith, since God called them in a time when He dealt differently with mankind (before Christ). You see, they did not receive the promise that we now have in Christ when they gained approval of God by their faith (Hebrews 11:39-40). So therefore, it is hard to say that they were 'predestined' since they did not have the knowledge of Christ. However, in Saul's case, he was apprehended by God in a direct way, being led to salvation to Jesus Christ when the Lord appeared to Him (Acts 9). But in each case, Jeremiah, Saul and Jonah did not choose God to begin with, and this is a point that Calvinists continue to dodge. They each came to a point where they had to choose to follow Christ and be his 'chosen instruments'. They were not saved from conception. Saul made the decision to follow Christ after the Lord apprehended him (Acts 9), Jonah made the decision to finally go to Nineveh (Jonah 3:3), and Jeremiah followed the Lord's command at an early age, even though he objected to his calling because he was a youth (Jer. 1:6-8). In each case, it is clear that Jeremiah, Jonah and Saul had to each make a decision to fulfill their calling in the Lord. This conscious acceptance of God and their adherence thereof is what caused their salvation, not because they were predestined to make those choices..Actually, I am concerned about the chuch dying out in a Calvinistic worldview. So I will do all I can to help people realize that Calvinism is flawed and 'found wanting' in areas where Arminianism is sound. Thanks Joe, for your questions. | ||||||
3 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 6358 | ||
Actually, I was not speaking of Saul of the New Testament, but rather of the Old, when in 1 Samuel the Holy Spirit basically "takes him over" for lack of a better term and begins to prophesy, despite the fact that he is on a mission to kill God's annointed (David). The New Testament Saul is an excellent example as well, however. Please show me from Acts 9 or any of Paul's writings where he stresses or even MENTIONS his involvement in his own salvation. What is Ananias told about Saul in Acts 9 even BEFORE he sees Saul? The fact is that Paul is one of the clearest examples of NOT having a say-so in one's regeneration. In addition, I am somewhat confused by the rest of your post. You write: "But in each case, Jeremiah, Saul and Jonah did not choose God to begin with, and this is a point that Calvinists continue to dodge." That is nothing Calvinists dodge. In fact, that is our entire point! God chooses individuals. That IS unconditional election! It is the Arminian who suggests that somehow man plays an active role in his own regeneration. Again, Nolan, you are the one who is confused about the Calvinist view of salvation and election. Maybe I am not explaining it well enough. Calvinists do NOT say that individuals are born saved (i.e. regenerated, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and equipped for Christian service). Here is the order of events: 1. Election of individuals (God chose those whom he would save before the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:1-6, Ephesians 1:4,11) 2. The birth of the elect (scattered throughout human history, including our future, they have a destiny already established by God, but they have not been "born again" at this point) 3. Upon hearing the gospel (and this is a necessary element that God decrees WILL happen in the life of the elect), the sinner's heart (previously rebellious toward God) is completely and totally changed by the Holy Spirit, making the sinner DESIRE to follow Christ when before there was no such inclination. 4. As soon as this happens, the sinner (without exception) places their faith in the substitutionary death of Christ, a faith that is a gift from God (Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8-9). The Calvinist never suggests that the unbeliever does not choose to believe. The Calvinist argument is that all those who are predestined will believe, and all those who are not predestined will not, due to the fact that God withholds saving grace from some and extends it to others. It is God who initiates AND completes the regeneration of the elect. Faith is our natural response to having been regenerated. Placing our faith in Christ and being "born again" take place at the same time. The big difference between Arminian and Calvinist points of view is which one logically precedes the other. Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit's regeneration precedes and causes faith. Arminians argure that while there is some form of prevenient grace freeing the human will, faith precedes and causes complete regeneration. Please take the time to understand the Calvinist viewpoint and realize that I do not hold that we were born only once, but twice as Jesus said we must be. --Joe! |
||||||
4 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58528 | ||
God knows everything. He doesn't exist in time like we do. Why do you have to have all these other absolutes? As Arminians and as Calvinists. You both presuppose that He made a plan and looked down through time and picked who would be on one side of the plan and who would be on the other side, like picking teams for kick ball! Doesn't it just make more sense that He looked down through time, saw who would make what choices and planned accordingly? I'm just glad my salvation isn't dependent on either of your points of doctrine. We do agree on that, right? I mean, I am born again, I do study the Word, it has pretty much taken over my whole life, I am filled with joy, and I must love both of you because all my maternal instincts are aroused. It's really very much like when my two oldest were teenagers and I wanted to knock both their heads together. Lovingly, of course. |
||||||