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NASB | Romans 5:6 ¶ For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 5:6 ¶ While we were still helpless [powerless to provide for our salvation], at the right time Christ died [as a substitute] for the ungodly. |
Subject: Christ dying only for elect? |
Bible Note: Actually, I was not speaking of Saul of the New Testament, but rather of the Old, when in 1 Samuel the Holy Spirit basically "takes him over" for lack of a better term and begins to prophesy, despite the fact that he is on a mission to kill God's annointed (David). The New Testament Saul is an excellent example as well, however. Please show me from Acts 9 or any of Paul's writings where he stresses or even MENTIONS his involvement in his own salvation. What is Ananias told about Saul in Acts 9 even BEFORE he sees Saul? The fact is that Paul is one of the clearest examples of NOT having a say-so in one's regeneration. In addition, I am somewhat confused by the rest of your post. You write: "But in each case, Jeremiah, Saul and Jonah did not choose God to begin with, and this is a point that Calvinists continue to dodge." That is nothing Calvinists dodge. In fact, that is our entire point! God chooses individuals. That IS unconditional election! It is the Arminian who suggests that somehow man plays an active role in his own regeneration. Again, Nolan, you are the one who is confused about the Calvinist view of salvation and election. Maybe I am not explaining it well enough. Calvinists do NOT say that individuals are born saved (i.e. regenerated, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and equipped for Christian service). Here is the order of events: 1. Election of individuals (God chose those whom he would save before the foundation of the world -- 1 Peter 1:1-6, Ephesians 1:4,11) 2. The birth of the elect (scattered throughout human history, including our future, they have a destiny already established by God, but they have not been "born again" at this point) 3. Upon hearing the gospel (and this is a necessary element that God decrees WILL happen in the life of the elect), the sinner's heart (previously rebellious toward God) is completely and totally changed by the Holy Spirit, making the sinner DESIRE to follow Christ when before there was no such inclination. 4. As soon as this happens, the sinner (without exception) places their faith in the substitutionary death of Christ, a faith that is a gift from God (Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8-9). The Calvinist never suggests that the unbeliever does not choose to believe. The Calvinist argument is that all those who are predestined will believe, and all those who are not predestined will not, due to the fact that God withholds saving grace from some and extends it to others. It is God who initiates AND completes the regeneration of the elect. Faith is our natural response to having been regenerated. Placing our faith in Christ and being "born again" take place at the same time. The big difference between Arminian and Calvinist points of view is which one logically precedes the other. Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit's regeneration precedes and causes faith. Arminians argure that while there is some form of prevenient grace freeing the human will, faith precedes and causes complete regeneration. Please take the time to understand the Calvinist viewpoint and realize that I do not hold that we were born only once, but twice as Jesus said we must be. --Joe! |