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NASB | Romans 5:6 ¶ For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 5:6 ¶ While we were still helpless [powerless to provide for our salvation], at the right time Christ died [as a substitute] for the ungodly. |
Subject: Pelagianism or Arminianism? |
Bible Note: Greetings Joe! You won’t believe this, but I lost enough post! My computer disconnected! From now, I elect to save all of my posts to my word processor first, and the paste them into the forum. :-) I thank you so much for a great response! Your post is a fine example of what a discussion can be - interactive and specific. Calvinists and Arminians can toss Scriptures back and forth all day, but until we really start dealing with how we interpret the various passages, we really aren’t sharing anything meaningful. As I’ve said before, my point in a discussion isn’t necessarily to convert someone else to my view. My point is two-fold: to sharpen my ability to communicate and understand my beliefs, and to expose others on the forum to a reasoned presentation of the evidence from all perspectives. Allow me to respond to your posts in two replies! In this one, I will deal with the Romans questions. In the second one, I will deal with the Ephesians questions. You made two points that you feel mitigate against Romans 9 referring to nations rather than individuals. 1) You felt that God is dealing with Jacob and Esau the individuals, not nations. Notice however, that the context of all the quotes from the Old Testament have to do with national destinies, not individual salvation. Paul introduces Esau and Jacob precisely to prove (as you pointed out in your post) that not all who are physically descended from Israel are Israel. He then refers to God’s choice of Jacob over Esau, not for salvation, but for the working out of His purpose in election. It was through Jacob that the Law came. It was through Jacob that the Messiah was to be born, not Esau. Even Romans 9:13, is a quote from Malachi 1:2-5, describing God’s judgment upon the nation of Edom, not His attitude toward Esau. If I could summarize Paul’s point, Israel has no right to complain about how God determines the nature of the spiritual "Israel." If He wants to open Israel up to those who are "not His people - Rom. 9:25", He can. He can have mercy upon whomever He wants to have mercy - Rom. 9:15. 2) Secondly, you felt that vessels of mercy in Rom. 9:23, referred not to nations, but individual among the Jews and Gentiles. Obviously, I would agree that individuals are included. However, I think that again nations are primarily in view. Why? The vessels are contextually the same vessels described in the quote (Rom. 9:20-21) from the Potter and the Clay (Jer. 18:3-6.) If you look at Jer. 18:3-6, you will find that God is once again dealing with the fate of nations and His right to work or use them as He sees fit. Finally, you must consider Romans 10-11as well, when you interpret Romans 9. Romans 10 extends the gospel invitation to whomsoever will. Romans 11 specifically says that some of those who are not part of the spiritual Israel, can be grafted in again if they do not persist in their unbelief - Rom. 11:23. And, I believe that Romans 11:28-32 is the key to understanding election: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." What is the purpose of election? - to have mercy on them all! Now you see why I needed two posts! :-) I look forward to your reply! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |