Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5866 | ||
Christ suffered God's wrath and paid the penalty for all of man's sin on the cross. I agree that if you believe in limited atonement, then unconditional election or Calvinism isn't far behind. However, if you believe in unlimited atonement, then Arminianism isn't far behind. There is also enough Scripture to back up unlimited atonement. First of all, God elected people to salvation who He foreknew would OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL believe in Christ and persevere in the faith. Second, in His atonement at the cross, Jesus provided the redemption for all humankind, making all humankind savable. But Christ's atonement becomes effective only for those who believe in Jesus. Third, human beings cannot save themselves. The Holy Spirit must effect the new birth. Fourth, prevenient grace from the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvation. Fifth, believers have been empowered by God to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation. | ||||||
2 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5873 | ||
Well you are right about "being as Arminian as they come"! John Wesley would be proud! :) Thew view you presented, however, contends that Christ didn't die for any ACTUAL sins at Calvary unless we believe. Therefore, I need to point out two things, which I hope you can address for me: 1. In theory, then, if no one had "cooperated with God in salvation," then Christ would have died for nothing. Yes, I know that didn't happen, but it still was a theoretical possibility, right? 2. Did Christ pay for any ACTUAL sins on the Cross? If so, did he pay the penalty for the sins of the damned as well? That would seem consistent with a view of unlimited atonement if Christ actually paid the debt on the Cross. One other thing: where is the Scriptural support for prevenient grace? Thanks! I hope if nothing else that our dialogue has given you a clearer picture of Calvinism, even if you disagree with it. Too many people out there misrepresent the theology, and therefore there is a lot of confusion about it. Even if we disagree with each other, I do feel that it is important that we UNDERSTAND where one another is coming from. --Joe! |
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3 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5917 | ||
To answer your questions about Arminianism, question 1 is not a theoretical possibility because it simply did not happen and could not happen (Isaiah 55:11). To answer Question 2, Hebrews 7:23-28 states that Christ died for all sins once for ALL, being the perfect sacrifice. Therefore, the Arminians view not only is based on scripture but it is theologically sound as well. This is where I am coming from. As far as prevenient grace, this is summed up as grace provided to them who respond and cooperate with the calling of the Holy Spirit, supported by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 12:3, Ephesians 2:8-10. Our dialogue has not only helped us to better define where we stand on the issue of election but also to see where each other is coming from. It is clear that there are two different understandings of exactly who Christ died for on the cross.In either case, God's election is loving (Eph. 1:4-11), it glorifies God (Eph. 1:12-14), and the product of election is a people who do good works (Eph. 2:10, Col. 3:12). | ||||||
4 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5921 | ||
With all due respect, you didn't answer question 2. Whose sins are the damned dying for? The same ones that Christ died for? --Joe! |
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5 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5925 | ||
With all due respect, Joe, the condemned are dying in their own sins- rest assured of that fact. However, I still hold that it cannot be refuted that Christ provided them with the opportunity not to endure hell, but they missed it and did not recognize that opportunity (being salvation in His Name). We are only here for 70 some years as human beings. Is not that a short time to determine what we will be doing for all eternity? I would pray that more would accept Christ, but that's not up to me but the Holy Spirit. | ||||||
6 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5936 | ||
So then you are saying that Christ did not pay the penalty for their sins. Or He did and they are paying it again, which rendered Christ's payment ultimately useless. Or Christ's payment counted and the resident of Hell is paying the penalty again, which makes no sense at all with a just God. You also said that you believe that some can lose their salvation. That debate is outside the range of this thread, but let's assume for argument that this is the case. We have a sinner who accepts Christ. Therefore, Christ paid the penalty for his sins (both our views will acknowledge that Christ died for this individual). Then he loses his salvation. Does that mean that Christ paid the penalty and then didn't? It is these problems that lead me to reject limited atonement and to interpret Scripture to say that in many cases, the "world" does not mean every single individual who has ever or will ever live. What does atonement mean, after all? Finally, how is people accepting Christ up to the Holy Spirit? I thought in the Arminian view He provides all with prevenient grace, so salvation is ultimately up to the sinner who can accept or reject that prevenient grace? Think about what I am saying. If there is some logic that I am missing here, please bring it to my attention. Thanks, and God bless! --Joe! |
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7 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5940 | ||
Joe, you have raised some good questions that I have to ask and answer for myself, believing in an Arminian view on this subject. It is good that you are pointing out the supposed 'weak' points of my point of view. I will take your questions into deep consideration and see if I can or cannot come up with an answer. How does Calvinism answer each question that you have posted above? | ||||||