Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5704 | ||
"Predestined" means that one's destiny is decided beforehand, in this case "before the creation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4) Who did the electing? See Ephesians 1:11 for the answer to that one. Saying that we are all predestined to be saved is universalism, the idea that all are going to heaven, which I think we will both agree is unbiblical. The key is understanding the meaning of the word "foreknew." If we follow Romans 8:29 on down by assuming that by God "foreknew" everyone in the sense that he simply "knew of their existence," we have some serious problems. Why? Because those he foreknew he predestined. These same people he called. No problem so far for the "free-will" camp. But then we see that those he called he JUSTIFIED? Are all men justified before God? No. Then we see that this same group is also GLORIFIED. I know of no one who would suggest that those going to hell are glorified! The foreknowing has a more intimate connotation than simply being aware of their existence. In the Bible we see many places where knowing has the idea of familiarity and personal initimacy. If we are to reject the idea that all are saved, then we have to adopt this understanding of the verb. --Joe! |
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2 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Mikeytj | 5886 | ||
Jerimiah 1:5 God tells us that He knew us before He placed us in our Mother's womb. He knew us personaly, not of us, not He had heard of us, but He knew us. The Bible is about God's immense love for us (don't turn this into why did He do this or why did he do that if He loves us). To say that God would intentionally take someone He knows and loves and place them here on earth with the sole purpose of destroying them and sending them to hell, just so those that deem they are included in the "predestined or chosen" group can feel good about themselves and thier stature, etc., is beyond comprehension. Could God do something like this if He desired, sure He could. Would He,,,,that would be a complete turn about of what the message of the Bible is all about. We're here, God knows us personally, and loves us, and we have the right (God given) to chose whether or not to have a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. I read one of these posts where someone indicated they did not want free will,,,,,well freind you have free will, whether you want it or not, and if you believe, because someone has told you that your predestined by God to be saved, that your ok, you better check into it very soon. All who are foreknown are predestined (Jer 1:5 tells us that all are foreknown), but only those who choose to come to God through Jesus Christ (excersising thier own free will) will receive His salvation. |
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3 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | inHzsvc | 5889 | ||
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Ro 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. From your post, it is apparent that you are trying to humanize your beliefs rather than taking the Word of God. I don't say this to offend--we all do this from time to time. I am sure that you grew up hearing the Arminianism that you believe preached as most have. However, you need to consider some things. Man is so evil, that he could never and would never choose God of his own free will. I Cor. 2:14 tells us, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Man, in his natural state, will NEVER choose God--he doesn't have the ability and he doesn't have the desire. That is called Total Depravity. Man is not partially depraved, but, totally depraved. So, man deserves hell and desires to be separated from God. However, we serve a gracious God who, by and through His grace, saves some. Now, as to the blood of Christ (which is of the utmost importance). For whom did Christ die? He either, 1) paid for every sin of every human being who has ever been born--if this is so, all will be saved because, legally, they do not owe a sin debt--it has been paid. 2) paid for some of the sins of all men--if this is so, all will be lost because they still owe a sin debt. 3) paid for all of the sins of some men (the elect)--if this is so, some will be saved and others will pay for their sin debt eternally--we know, this is the truth. Everybody limits the atonement. You limit the power of it in that it doesn't saved--it merely makes salvation "possible". I limit it as to extent because I believe Christ's atoning blood saved some. Many passages refer to Christ dying for "many", "his people", his "sheep", etc. There's a reason the Word of God is specific. God bless. |
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4 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5908 | ||
The word of God is specific in that there will be some that are saved, and at that- very few. (sadly)..However, your first option in the paragraph about the blood of Christ is where I disagree. I agree that God foreknew us and set us apart as His elect people upon the moment of salvation. I also agree that human beings cannot save themselves. The Holy Spirit must effect the new birth. Where I disagree is that through the blood of Jesus, He provided redemption for all humankind, making it possible for all humans to be saved. (Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:6, etc) But Christ's atonement becomes effective only for those who believe in Jesus. I believe that this is the "heart" or center of our disagreement. You said that if this was true, then all mankind would be saved. I do not understand that scenario: if Christ died for all humanity, how does this lead to all humanity being saved if the people do not respond to Christ's invitation? If Christ's redemptive power only becomes active when a person accepts Christ, then how is it that you come to the conclusion that all humanity is saved if Christ died for all of the sins of humanity? Therefore, it is a 'gift unopened', a gift that is not opened and forgotten about (to one who rejects Christ). And they reject Christ, paying for their sins forever.I apologize for trying to bring humanity into the equation, but I needed to know where those who believe in the Calvinist side of this issue draw the line in the regeneration process, and I have learned a great deal about that through these posts.Thanks for your input. Blessings, Nolan | ||||||
5 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | inHzsvc | 5931 | ||
You must understand the legal part of the whole. Sin is "illegal." If Christ paid for our sins, God would be requiring double payment if we died and went to hell. If somebody paid off your home mortgage, it would be paid--you'd owe nothing more. If Christ paid for all of the sins of all men, what will some be in hell for? Unbelief? Is that not a sin that Christ died for? I hope so--we were all born in unbelief. So, again, what are some going to be in hell for? Because they didn't "accept" the payment? Does that matter if the debt has already been paid? Again, Christ legally died for some and they will be saved. All are responsible for rejecting because they did exactly what they wanted to. God bless. |
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6 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 6039 | ||
We shouldn't confuse the legal aspect of this argument with what exactly Christ did for us on the cross. He died for all of man's sin (Luke 19:10, John 1:29, 1 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 2:9, Romans 5:18). Therefore, Christ died for all the sins of all men on the cross. If you make the argument that those who reject Christ are paying for their sins in hell even though Christ already paid for it, then YES!! Yes, they are paying for their own sin 'twice' (according to your faulty Calvinistic reasoning) even though Christ already died for it on the cross. They failed to accept the grace that was offered to them by the Lord Jesus Christ. But you make the false claim that Christ died for nothing- He has possession of all of us who accept Him as Lord and Savior as His people- so you can see that He did not die for nothing. Don't worry, Joe (Reformer Joe), I have all of your answers ready and will get to you when I have the time. | ||||||
7 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | inHzsvc | 6043 | ||
What you are doing is limiting the power of the blood of Christ. You are saying that it was not sufficient in itself to save sins--it had to have the faith of people added to it. Your limiting of the atonement is far worse than the Calvinistic limiting of it. The Calvinist believes that Christ surely "saved His people from their sins"(Mat. 1:21). You're reasoning says that Christ's death actually accomplished nothing and it will only accomplish if man will "let" God save him. Where is the Scripture where God ever "tried" to save somebody and they wouldn't Him? Where is the Scripture that says anybody whom Christ paid their sin debt will die and go to Hell? Again, what will the people be in Hell for--unbelief? Is this not a sin that Christ died for? I am not the one saying sins will be paid for twice. They will not. Either Christ died for them or the sinner will suffer for them eternally. May God add His richest blessings to His Word. |
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8 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58495 | ||
John 3:16 says you have to believe. Jesus in His parables (in Matthew as it happens) says straight up that some just won't get it. And doesn't the Bible also say that many will love their flesh more than Jesus, even in the end of days when God is pouring out His wrath? There are your scriptures. |
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9 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | inHzsvc | 58727 | ||
I agree that people must believe. However, this is only possible by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Jesus not only says some "won't get it," He says some can't get it because they are not of His sheep. God bless. |
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10 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58738 | ||
Where does He say some can't get it? Genuine query. Don't bite my head off. Melanie |
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