Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5713 | ||
The problem here is that you are taking it as axiomatic that unregenerate man in any way has the ability to "choose God," that he is morally free to do so. Please show us in Scripture where it declares that man's will is free in this regard. Therefore, you seem to be interpreting Scripture in any way possible to protect this idea that man is free to choose, which I hold to be refuted soundly by Romans 3:10-18 and John 6 and Romans 9. Christ died not to OFFER payment of sins to all men, but to become sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), to die in our place (Galatians 2:20). Nowhere in the Bible do we see that he is a "hypothetical redeemer" or a "propitiation in theory." Your entire re-hashing of Norman Geisler does nothing but say that Jesus' death on the cross was incomplete in some fashion. Either Christ atoned for MY sin on the cross, undergoing the just wrath of God for MY sin, or he did not. It is not up to me to decide 2,000 years later whose sin Christ paid for. That is so undermining to the very biblical notion of God's freedom and sovereignty, and only exists to support the very unbiblical notion of man's unlimited moral freedom and sovereignty concerning salvation. Try to look at these Scriptures without the assumption that humans are morally capable of choosing to follow Christ (whether unaided or merely "wooed" by the Holy Spirit), and see if the freedom of man's will can be exegeted from the Bible. It is God who chooses, the Son who dies for those who are chosen, and the Holy Spirit who regenerates the chosen and causes them to believe in the Son who died in their place. The unsaved are completely left out of the salvation scenario. The unsaved are not chosen by God, and therefore they will justly suffer for all eternity for their own sins, since Christ did not pay for them on the cross. Any other scenario breaks down when carried to its logical conclusion. We end up with either universalism, an impotent God, or the penalty for sin being paid for by Christ AND the unbeliever. --Joe! |
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2 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5862 | ||
There are more problems with saying that certain people are predestined to hell then there are with saying that God is sovereign and knows who is going where but still extends His hand out to humanity, so those who have not chosen Him would come to Him. I do not believe in universalism. I agree that universalism is not biblical. However, I cannot understand Calvinism and I am as Arminianist as one can get. | ||||||
3 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5869 | ||
What problems are those in saying that some are not chosen? Here is the Calvinist viewpoint on Hell: 1. It is what we all deserve. 2. If none of us were saved, God would be demonstrating his justice and wrath toward sinners, both of which are entirely Biblical concepts. 3. Therefore, Hell is the "default destiny" of sinful man. There is never a point at which we are neutral as far as our salvation was concerned. Before, all of us are spiritually dead. Christians are made alive in Christ. 4. This is not due to our choice, but rather to God's mercy and grace (UNDESERVED kindness). 5. God is not OBLIGATED to show undeserved kindness and mercy to all. He is the Creator after all. 6. If God is required to offer kindness to all, then it is not grace anymore, but rather a deserved right we have. 7. Therefore, those who go to Hell get what they deserve, which demonstrates God's justice. Those of us who are saved do not get what we deserve (Hell), which demonstrates God's mercy. In both, God is glorified. I think the problem comes with a God who intends to save everyone, but fails to do so. Is he not loving enough to work to change the minds of the damned, or is he just not powerful enough to do so? Saying that God loves us enough to let us make up our own minds is small consolation to those who are facing an eternity of judgment and wrath if He indeed intended to save them. Thanks for the dialogue! --Joe! |
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4 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5914 | ||
This might just be the conclusion that we have to make here (or reconciliation of our views), that God loves us enough to let us make the decision individually about His free gift even though He indeed intends to save us. | ||||||
5 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5920 | ||
And I contend that this not love. If you have children, do you let them play near a hot stove if they are determined to do so? If they are determined to play with a plugged-in hair dryer, would you say, "Well, I love you, but it's your choice."? I do not make the conclusion you do because I hold that your premeses are flawed. --Joe! |
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6 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5924 | ||
And so we are in agreement- my premise is flawed and so is yours! :) | ||||||