Results 1 - 2 of 2
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5843 | ||
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30 Since you think the interpretation of this passage hinges on "foreknowledge," let's see if skipping to the next point brings us to an Arminian conclusion: Let's start with those who are predestined. Note that it is not a means of salvation that is predestined, but individuals. These are the ones who are called. If all are not predestined, it does not logically follow that all are called. This statement would be meaningless otherwise. We both agree that at least some are called. You seem to think that ALL are called, and some do not heed the call. Well, those God called, He JUSTIFIED. If ALL men are called, do you hold that ALL are justified? It doesn't say that "those who answered God's call He justified." Let's go further: those whom he predestined and called and justified He GLORIFIED. Now those who have been called by God are all glorified (according to a "God calls everyone" point-of-view)? Again, there is no passage which explicitly says, "Mankind is free to accept or reject Christ." In fact, there are passages like these which explicitly state the opposite. God is the subject of all verbs having to do with choosing, electing, saving, predestining, adopting. We as Christians are the object of all those verbs. Yes, all who believe will be saved (John 5:24). But who will believe? Only those whom the Father gives to the Son. The rest are completely incapable (John 6:44,65; Romans 8:8). Christ saves completely those whom the Father gives to Him (John 6:37). This is not what somebody reads into the text. It is the text's message. If we cannot believe the rendering of clear-as-crystal biblical text, but insist that it "must" mean something else despite a long and clarifying explanation in its context, how can we be sure of any doctrines of the Bible? --Joe! |
||||||
2 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5991 | ||
This will be my last post as well, Joe. I'm sure you're thinking, ‘FINALLY!' I just want to start by saying what an honor it has been to debate this issue with you! You have been polite, insightful, and thorough and I appreciate your point of view. And, you have truly made me seriously consider my opinion! So, thank you! I just want to finish with two issues you had previously mentioned which we see in different ways. Romans 8:29 (I apologize for quoting the incorrect verse in a previous correspondence.) dealing with ‘foreknowledge,' and I Timothy 2:4. First, Rm 8:29, I interpret this and the accompanying versus as a progression. In other words, each element mentioned is necessary before the next element can be accomplished. So with this interpretation, it would be impossible to take foreknowledge out of the equation; because, if we did the equation could not work. As to the differences in the view of foreknowledge, I would like to quote the Nelson Study Bible article titled ‘Election,' "Arminians, those who embrace the position of the seventeenth-century Dutch pastor Jacobus Arminius, understand ‘foreknowledge to mean GOD's knowledge in advance of those who would repent of their sin and believe the gospel." Later the article states, "Calvinists, named for the French Reformer John Calvin, understand ‘foreknowledge as a ‘relational' term. In other words, foreknowledge refers to GOD's intimate knowledge of and love for His elect before they coma into existence." And finally, the article concludes, "Put simply, Calvinists define ‘election' as the ‘unconditional choice of GOD that is the ‘cause of our faith. Arminians, on the other hand, would define it as the ‘conditional choice of GOD that is the ‘result' of our faith." Continued... |
||||||