Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5756 | ||
When we analyze a set of four verses of Scripture (such as the four you cited), it is always best to get a broader understanding of those verses by looking at the larger context of what is being said. In this case, let us look at John 14-17 to examine exactly what John's (and moreover Christ's) understanding of both what the "world" is and what the Spirit's role is. Does the fact that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin mean that everyone will be enabled to accept Christ? Well, in John 14:17 says that "the world cannot receive [Him], because it does not see Him or know Him., but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." Therefore, the world is unable to receive the Spirit, so that classifies the "world" in a different category than the disciples, whom Jesus is addressing. It says that the world does not see Him, doesn't even know Him! In John 14:26, we see that the Holy Spirit is the One who will teach the disciples all things. Therefore, the One whom the "world" doesn't even know will teach the disciples. I see no salvific interaction between the Spirit and the world yet. In John 15:18, the "world" will hate the disciples, just as it hates Christ. In the next verse, we see that the disciples are "not of the world," that Christ CHOSE them, and as a result, the world hates them. Therefore, we see reinforced a clear division between the world and the ones who are called by God. In verse 26 we see that the Spirit will testify about Christ with the disciples, but there is no indication that everyone will be free to accept the Spirit's testimony. In fact, Christ has just promised them the opposite from the world. Again in verse 16:13 we see that the Spirit will be the active guide to truth. If the Spirit is here to "try and convert everyone," why does our holy, sovereign God fail in his mission? Perhaps that isn't his mission after all... Verse 17:6 reinforces this: "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." Again, God GAVE them to Him out of the world. Who is consistently the active agent in bringing people out of the world? ALl througout the Bible, we see it is God who (unaided by our "free will") chooses individuals out of the world and gives them to Christ. Therefore, contrary to your post, the world does NOT include "everyone." Conviction of sin does not lead to ability to repent and choose Christ. It is merely a declaration of guilt and judgment, which is reinforced by passages such as Philippians 1:27-28. Our presence here on earth is not to "win all the lost." It is to proclaim God's truth, to be the Holy Spirit's visible instruments through which He calls the elect, and to be the embodiment of the "sign of destruction" to those who will die and face just punishment. Finally, it is not by man's wisdom that I claim to "understand the intricate workings of GOD." I have the Holy Spirit, as I assume you do; and I can read the Bible, as I am sure you can. The Bible is the source of our revelation, which brings us back to my previous question: is the notion of even a spark of spiritual life to choose to follow Christ a product of man's wisdom which man brings to the words of the Bible; or is it clearly revealed to be a trait that man possesses? If it is the latter, please enlighten us as to the support for it and also explain away passages such as Romans 3, written after Pentecost, which clearly states that man's spiritual condition is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Please demosntrate how anyone dead can do anything to save himself? This debate may be old and tired to you, but it does speak fundamentally to how we view God and how we conduct evangelism. It is highly important, even though it is not a salvific issue, that we get it right. How has God revealed his intentions with regard to salvation? What does the Bible have to say on man's supposed freedom? Take away the assumption that all men are equally aided by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ and see if the entirety of the New Testament supports such a thesis. Thanks for your comments! --Joe! |
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2 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5777 | ||
This debate may be old and tired to you, but it does speak fundamentally to how we view God and how we conduct evangelism. It is highly important, even though it is not a salvific issue, that we get it right. How has God revealed his intentions with regard to salvation? What does the Bible have to say on man's supposed freedom? Take away the assumption that all men are equally aided by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ and see if the entirety of the New Testament supports such a thesis. I am always interested in how Calvinists think I view GOD. Which GOD is greater, a God who must control everything, so nothing will go wrong, or a God that knows everything possible, so He can let his creation have freewill because nothing can go wrong? A God who forces some to Him by His irresistible will, or a God that welcomes all to Him in His unfathomable love? A God who has enough mercy for some, or a God who has abundant mercy for all? A God that allows some to be saved and some to be lost, or a God that desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved? You decide. As far as evangelism, I have recently seen some prominent preachers, who believe in election, say that it is hard work to go to hell because you have to walk over the knowledge of Jesus. That doesn't sound like election! Thank you for your views and GOD bless!! |
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3 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5795 | ||
Well, in your view of God, you show a lack of understanding of the Reformed position. Let me help: God knows everything possible, but that isn't to say that knowing everything possible means that nothing will go wrong. It still requires God's intervention to some extent. I know you probably believe this, so we disagree as far as the extent to which God intervenes, especially concerning man's supposed "free will." It isn't whether God MUST control everything; but whether he only sits back and steps in where necessary, or that nothing at all exists or happens without his causing it or allowing it. The biblical God is an extremely active God. Now it isn't a question whether he "gives" his creatures free will or not. He indeed did so, and Adam ruined that right quick for us all. Romans 5:12 makes that pretty clear to me. Romans 3:10-18 settles what our true nature is, and the repetition throughout Romans of the unregenerate being slaves to sin reinforces that idea. Therefore, we sold ourselves into sin by breaking our fellowship with God. Bondage and slavery are the exact opposite of freedom, and the human race got itself into that predicament, not God. As far as irresistible grace, the view that God brings man "kicking and screaming" to His side is not the Reformed one, either. Before God changes the elect, we ALL hate God. None seek him. Regeneration is not a process of negotiation or a tug of war, but rather an instantaneous rebirth, a bringing us to life out of spiritual death. God supernaturally changes our hearts so that we do desire him; God does not make us grudgingly accept him even though we would rather go to Hell than do so. Regeneration by necessity must logically precede faith. Does God only have mercy for some? You think that God is required to show mercy to all or none. What does Romans 9:15-18 tell us? Which reflects God's true character? A God "that allows some to be saved and some to be lost" is more of a description of the image of God YOU hold to. First of all, do you disagree that God allows some to be lost? If God did not allow it, it would not happen. People will spend an eternity in Hell, so God does allow some to be lost. Calvinists hold that God does not merely ALLOW men to be saved, but rather that God is the sole and efficient CAUSE of salvation, from start to finish (Romans 8:28-30). Paul addresses irresistible grace in Romans 9:19-23. He addresses unconditional election in Ephesians 1:4-11 and the mercy issue in Romans 9:5-18. Total depravity is Romans 3:10-18,23. Perseverence of the saints is John 6:35-65 and Romans 8:1-2,37-39 and Ephesians 1:13-14. Contrary to your statement, it is not up to man to decide which God is "greater," but rather we need to look to Scripture to see who God truly is. I again ask you to refute the apparently blatant declaration of election in Romans 9:5-23. If there is some alternate explanation that Paul makes room for, I would be more than happy to hear it. So far it has not been forthcoming. By the way, you are right about the preachers: it doesn't sound like election at all! But then again, they aren't Scripture any more than you or I are. --Joe! |
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4 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5799 | ||
Yes, He is an active GOD, but you make my view seem dense. If GOD is actively involved everyday in every person's life convicting them and giving them signs and witnesses before they're saved, and then of course after they're saved the activity only increases. Is that sitting back and taking steps when necessary? Not in my thinking! As far as Rom 3, I am fine with that but we have a difference of opinion on what the Holy Spirit is doing! I believe Jn 16:8-11 shows that the Holy Spirit convicts the world (all who do not have Christ) of their sin(Rm.3), because they do not believe in Him. I don't remember using the words "kicking and screaming" I think you assume I have no understanding of the terms 5-pointers use, but I do. I'm no expert, but I've heard this speech before and it blows my mind that believing is a Biblical requirement for salvation so many more times than any ‘choice' but to cover that 5-pointers say, well, GOD made me do it. The Bible sure doesn't make it sound that way! Does God only have mercy for some? You think that God is required to show mercy to all or none. What does Romans 9:15-18 tell us? Which reflects God's true character? I believe that GOD has CHOSEN to offer Grace to all. The fact that He doesn't have to, just shows what a Merciful GOD He is! Rm 9:15-18 states what GOD can do, but you have to look at the examples to see what He did do! Egypt was promised punishment in Genesis, Pharaoh was the tyrant in control at the time of Egypt's judgement. And, GOD was merciful and compassionate to Moses. So, in both cases, if you look at the history, GOD was too merciful to be just, but He never hardened anyone without just cause! Paul was an expert in the O.T. his references do not, in my opinion, simply stand on their own. You have to know the background. A God "that allows some to be saved and some to be lost" is more of a description of the image of God YOU hold to. First of all, do you disagree that God allows some to be lost? If God did not allow it, it would not happen. People will spend an eternity in Hell, so God does allow some to be lost. Calvinists hold that God does not merely ALLOW men to be saved, but rather that God is the sole and efficient CAUSE of salvation, from start to finish (Romans 8:28-30). Poor choice of words on my part, but we both got the point. GOD, I believe, would allow someone to reject Him, but He would never simply reject someone without offering them redemption. Check out Rm 9:22, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED for destruction?" (The word in all caps, in the original language suggest self-preparation. In other words, the vessels of wrath prepared themselves for destruction, GOD did not.) Why do you quote Rm 8:28-30, we both know there is no Biblical proof of what ‘foreknowledge' is, so to suggest that those verses prove something is ridiculous. Calvinists and Armenians use these verses to prove their points depending on what foreknowledge means, citing that text proves nothing. |
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5 | Who is the Potter? Who is the clay? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5840 | ||
"On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" -- Romans 9:20-23 Now taking Romans 9:22 in context, do we have the slightest bit of wiggle room to suggest that we "prepared ourselves" for destruction? Who is the potter? Who is the clay? Who has the right over the clay? Who molds the clay as a vessel for common use? And, of course, the question Paul states at the beginning of the passage: Who are you to tell the Creator what to do with his creation? By the way, the Greek word KATARTIZO carries no such connotation of "self-preparation," but rather is a term used by artisans and architects which means to fit, or prepare. It is also used of framing something, of making something fit a particular area. All consistent with the Reformed view. Do we REALLY need the Greek to get the meaning of this when we have an abundance of crystal-clear context? This is what I mean by the mental somersaults people have to do to maintain an Arminian standpoint. --Joe! |
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6 | Who is the Potter? Who is the clay? | Rom 5:6 | godskid | 5844 | ||
God the Father is the Potter. Creating us in His image. Having His plan for us to success, to prosper. He is the guider by the power of the Holy Spirit. The light unto our feet and a light unto our path. His glory lights the way and brings darkness to an end. The clay is pliable, will be directed and guided. It will succeed because the Creator is doing the work. The clay is only the vessel being used for the Creator. What an honor, to have the Creator mold, guide and purpose our existence. There is no failure or uncertainy. All is known from the beginning to the end. AMEN. Glory to God, our Father, through the Blood of Jesus we have the Victory. | ||||||