Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5776 | ||
Again in verse 16:13 we see that the Spirit will be the active guide to truth. If the Spirit is here to "try and convert everyone," why does our holy, sovereign God fail in his mission? Perhaps that isn't his mission after all... A guide to truth for believers, yes. I do not believe that this verse is suggesting that the HS will be active in bringing only some to salvation, by guiding them to the undeniable acceptance of Christ because they were chosen for salvation and others were not. Verse 17:6 reinforces this: "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." Again, God GAVE them to Him out of the world. Who is consistently the active agent in bringing people out of the world? ALl througout the Bible, we see it is God who (unaided by our "free will") chooses individuals out of the world and gives them to Christ. This is, of course, the High Priestly Prayer and you will remember that I said the disciples were indeed chosen, please take special note of this chapter. Who is Jesus talking about in vs 6? I believe the disciples, notice verse 7, "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;" No one knew this information at that time but the disciples (the twelve). Chapter 17 focuses on GOD giving the disciples (the twelve) to Christ, or in other words choosing them. However notice vs. 20, "I do not ask on behalf of these(the twelve) alone, but for those also who BELIEVE in Me through their word;" So the chapter clearly indicates that the twelve were chosen by Christ, but when Christ prays to the Father, He says, "those also who believe in Me." Now, if there was ever a time when Christ could have said, You Father decide who believes in Me, He would have while talking to the Father! But He did not, who does the action? Those who believe in Me, non-believers do the action! Therefore, contrary to your post, the world does NOT include "everyone." Conviction of sin does not lead to ability to repent and choose Christ. It is merely a declaration of guilt and judgment, which is reinforced by passages such as Philippians 1:27-28. Our presence here on earth is not to "win all the lost." It is to proclaim God's truth, to be the Holy Spirit's visible instruments through which He calls the elect, and to be the embodiment of the "sign of destruction" to those who will die and face just punishment. You have given me no convincing arguments that the world does not include everyone. And, what does Phil. 1:27,28 have to do with conviction of sin? As I read it, Paul is saying that the fact that your opponents are fighting against you shows that they have not received Christ; therefore, they will pay the price in eternity. Did you truly determine the doctrine of election solely from Scripture? You didn't read about it in the notes of a Study Bible or Commentary on the Bible? I take you at your word, but I have found that most people initially reject the doctrine of election until they are shown the verses that suggest it. (By the by, I do believe in some form of the doctrine of election; however, a ridged adherence to 5-point Calvinism is, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of Scripture! So, I agree with you, but only somewhat.) Yes, I do have the Holy Spirit in me as you do, but a better question is, did John Wesley? How about Calvin? I believe the answer to both is yes, and yet they disagreed on this subject, so if you want to compare your resume to Wesley, and then tell him he doesn't know how to read the Bible, please do! If the HS doesn't lead all Christians to the same conclusion, the HS may think we should leave well enough alone! Romans 3 was written after Pentecost, but aren't all those statements quotes from the Old Testament? I see ch. 3 as Paul proving to the Jews that they are under sin just like the Gentiles. If the Law said that ‘None is Righteous' then they must need salvation just as much as the dirty Gentiles. (I'm speaking in terms of what the Jews thought of the Gentiles.) Besides that, ‘conviction of sin' is to make one realize their need for Christ, so these words help the HS convict of sin. |
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2 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5792 | ||
I am sorry. I need to be clearer, I suppose. Are the disciples included in the "world"? No. Therefore the world does not include EVERYONE. I will suppose that you meant everyone but the disciples. In any case, I never claimed that John 17 was an ironclad defense of the doctrine of election, since as you said, that is not the prayer's primary purpose. Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 are the clearest examples of God's sovereign choice in my mind, and those passages I know you agree are divinely inspired as well. While John 17 could be taken both ways, I fail to find anyone yet who is able to explain away Paul's explanation of how God's mercy operates and the analogy of the potter (God) and the pots (us). If you can, I would love to hear a "free will" explanation of it. I just can't see one myself. Jesus's statements about the inability of man to come to him unless the Father gives them to him (John 6:35-65) also seems pretty compelling to me. When I alluded to Philippians 1:27,28, I was referring to just what you said, that even though the Holy Spirit speaks out in judgment (that is what conviction means, by the way -- one does not need to feel guilty of a crime to be convicted of it), there are some who reject it. Perhaps I could have used a different passage, but having the truth revealed clearly about sin through the power of the Holy Spirit does not mean that He works some inner change of any kind on ALL who hear the message. Just because one's need for salvation is made clear does not mean that God has extended it to everyone. As far as my own personal journey toward Calvinism, I grew up in Dispensationalist land (and, incidentally, still attend a church very much influenced by Dallas Theological Seminary). I wouldn't say that I ever wholeheartedly rejected unconditional election; rather, I would say that I never seriously examined it. Our wills are indeed free in a great many ways without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (just not morally capable of pleasing God), that without the words of Scripture it does seem that our choosing to follow Christ was to a large degree our decision. However, I also noticed that those troublesome passages mentioned above were pretty much skirted around by pastors who hold to the idea that salvation is co-operative. Either they explained it away by saying (wrongly) that God pre-ordained a means of salvation, rather than individuals; or they explained it as as being a situation where God "chose" us because he knew from eternity past that we would choose him someday. The latter is probably close to the view I held, but it always was troubling to me to think that it was God who was sovereign and God who called us and that we do not deserve it in the slightest, but yet the Spirit called everyone and only some were "smart" enough to choose it (or whatever term you would like to insert in the quotes). In addition, in typical Christian fashion I most likely ignored Romans 9 and similar passages to a large extent because it didn't fit into the framework that I had grown up in. Initially, I was not introduced to Reformed theology per se, but the works of such scholars and commentators such as Mark Noll, David F. Wells, George Marsden, and Bruce Shelley. While all of them were commenting on the culture, the university, the church and the way the world has molded it into its image, and the history of the body of Christ, I was quite impressed by their scholarship which, in interacting and commenting on the culture of today, is quite rare in other more "pretribulational" settings. The interesting thing to me was that to a large degree it was informed by their Reformed theological perspective. That is when it dawned on me that I had never given it a very serious look, but rather had dismissed it without careful examination. You are correct that I didn't hold firmly to Calvinism until it was explained to me and shown the passages in Scripture which support it (along with very sound refutations of arguments against it). But that is my whole point: once I took a step back from pre-supposing that the Holy Spirit merely "aided" or "enabled" man in accepting Christ, I found that there is no overt passage in Scripture to suggest such a thing at all (just the opposite, in fact). Therefore, I moved toward Calvinism (thanks in part to careful, fair explanation by R.C. Sproul, who is far more gracious toward the opposition than he is given credit for). Mainly what caused my shift in thinking is the God-centeredness of Calvinism, taking the highest view of His sovereignty and taking a much more biblically accurate view of our sinfulness and rebellion in light of His holiness. But enough about me. You say that you hold to some form of the doctrine of election. Please elaborate! The Holy Spirit works through people who are wrong on clear doctrine all the time. Wesley was wrong on election and still bore fruit same as Calvin. --Joe! |
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3 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5796 | ||
My belief about election/freewill is that both are true(better stated election/responsibility, I believe the Bible clearly teaches that non-believers will be to blame for not choosing Christ, and that one I can show you in Rom. 9.), and we will never understand how! (Unless GOD decides to reveal it to us in heaven.) Limited atonement is refuted all over the Bible by John, Paul, and Peter, but these verses are 'interpreted' in an unusal way to make the 5-points work. I've made this comment before, but I know there are alot of gifts and lots of wisdom I do not have but what I do have is a sound mind and the ability to reason, and for me to rearrange verses to believe any doctrine, is wrong and my conscience cannot bear it. My understanding of 'world' does include everyone but the apostles in John 16; because, they have already realized their need for Christ through His divine choice. John uses the same word for world in John 3:16 and I believe in that usage it included everyone, including the disciples because He was speaking in general rather than specific terms, as to who has been saved and who has not. Also, in Jn. 16 Jesus uses judgment and conviction in vs 8-11. Are these the same word and if not what is the significance? Lastly, I have always gone to 'dispensational' churches and they have always been 'election' folks. Are most dispensationalist not this way? Dallas Theological Seminary is VERY much pro-Election doctrine; although, they are willing to say that they cannot understand it all. (Not 5-point Calvin, but 4, Limited Atonement.) About Rom. 9, I believe if I was so inclined I could work around these verses as easily as 5-pointers work around, say I Tim 2:4. But, I admit it is a strech. My point with Mr. Wesley is that he probably studied the Bible as much as anyone and the Spirit was strong in his life, and he, unlike some great saints, was quite careful about doctrine (specifically, election, I mean he studied it!) and yet the Spirit chose not to move him in Calvin's direction. So, if its that important the Spirit would not leave Spirit-filled saints on the side-lines. |
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4 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5798 | ||
When I have heard dispensationalists say that they cannot understand it all, it is usually because they pre-suppose free-willism. It is some "unfathomable mystery" until you put free-willism aside, then it does come together pretty nicely. Please take the time and inclination to take a hard look at Romans 9 to come up with some alternative interpretation. 1 Timothy 2:4 is not that much of a stretch. If we want to avoid the heresy of universalism and maintain that Scripture is inspired and non-contradictory, we have to look closely at the context of passages and correctly determine whether "all men" means "all individuals" or "all kinds of men." Wesley even argued with His own brother about a great number of the fundamentals of Scripture. The fact that sincere and fruitful Christians disagree does not mean that there is no clear revelation on the issue. People bring their own pre-suppositions to the Bible all the time. I think it would be a little much to assume that Augustine and Luther and Calvin and Wesley and others did not bring some of their own. Fallible human beings such as myself and yourself often interpret Scripture wrongly. That does not mean that there is not any answer revealed, but rather that we should as brothers in Christ vigorously debate the matters in order to come to a knowledge of the truth in matters that ARE addressed in Scripture, and God's role in salvation is extensively addressed in Scripture! Thanks again! --Joe! |
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