Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Makarios | 5530 | ||
Believing in unlimited atonement by no means attempts to 'tie the hands of the Almighty'! I am not saying that Christ's work is in any way 'limited' or that there are 'limitations' for Him. There are not any hindrances or limitations for Jesus Christ. (Isaiah 55:11) Therefore, by supporting 'unlimited atonement' (that Christ died for the godly and the ungodly, for everyone), I am in no way saying or supporting: 1) That Christ wasted His time and lacked foresight by dying for those whom He had not chosen to salvation (Eph. 1), 2) That Christ is defeated if He died for all men and all men aren't saved, 3) That Christ has paid in full the sins of those that will be lost, 4) That Christ's prayer in John 17 was only for the elect. I hope that you are not misunderstanding what I am trying to say here: I do not support any of the above things, and there is no limit to Christ and His word, of fulfilling and succeeding in the matter that He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).To answer the above statements: Christ showed the ultimate foresight and wisdom by dying for all of man's sin on the cross so that not only could He release all humanity from the bondage of sin and provide, for each and every human being, a 'way out' of sin, but he could render judgment upon satan forever, who stands to accuse us as he makes war against those who believe in Christ. You see, Christ had to make this option, a choice to live- the Way to salvation, available to every single human being so that we could have the will to accept or to decline His lordship in our lives. How could the Lord single out certain people that He died for if He is 'no respecter of persons'? (Acts 10:34). It does not matter who you are or where you live, you have the option to accept Jesus Christ and live and reign forever with Him in paradise. The problem is, is that people do not realize that this 'choice' should not be taken 'lightly' and that they should not continue to live for themselves in this world (and so reject Christ) but to live for Christ (and so become one of the elect). Few are chosen (Matt. 7:14), but it is God's desire that more would find this Way of life and turn to Him (Luke 15:1-7). We must not lose sight of His love for us. He does not want us to perish! In this way, he has given every man every chance, every opportunity to come to Him, he died for every man's sins! But man is the one who makes the tragic, conscious choice to reject God, even though God knew beforehand who would reject Him (Luke 22:21-23) but He had His hand out, extended to the one who would reject Him (giving him every chance possible), even though God knew in His sovereignty beforehand who would reject Him. And even though He knows, I have to imagine that this breaks His heart! Do these people realize just what they are doing by turning away from Him? How can Jesus show His ultimate love for humankind if He has not extended to every man and woman who has ever been born the opportunity of salvation by dying for every person's sins? However, if people reject Him and His free gift to all humankind, then they will have chosen not to accept this free gift of Christ and they will die in their own sins. They will have revoked this offer, making Christ's offer void to them at the time of death, making it impossible for Christ to cover over their sins because they did not accept His free gift. So in rejection of Christ's gift, then yes, the atonement is then 'limited' because of man's choice. But Christ has made this choice free for all men to potentially accept, therefore making the offer of this atonement 'unlimited'. For if He had not made it open and free to everyone to accept, then satan would not stand condemned, since satan then could claim ownership of those whom Christ did not die for. In this way, Jesus has obtained the keys to both sin and death and pronounced victory over satan for all time by defeating him at the cross and making salvation possible for every human by dying for every human being's sins, and not just for those who will accept His free gift. | ||||||
2 | Christ dying only for elect? | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5713 | ||
The problem here is that you are taking it as axiomatic that unregenerate man in any way has the ability to "choose God," that he is morally free to do so. Please show us in Scripture where it declares that man's will is free in this regard. Therefore, you seem to be interpreting Scripture in any way possible to protect this idea that man is free to choose, which I hold to be refuted soundly by Romans 3:10-18 and John 6 and Romans 9. Christ died not to OFFER payment of sins to all men, but to become sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), to die in our place (Galatians 2:20). Nowhere in the Bible do we see that he is a "hypothetical redeemer" or a "propitiation in theory." Your entire re-hashing of Norman Geisler does nothing but say that Jesus' death on the cross was incomplete in some fashion. Either Christ atoned for MY sin on the cross, undergoing the just wrath of God for MY sin, or he did not. It is not up to me to decide 2,000 years later whose sin Christ paid for. That is so undermining to the very biblical notion of God's freedom and sovereignty, and only exists to support the very unbiblical notion of man's unlimited moral freedom and sovereignty concerning salvation. Try to look at these Scriptures without the assumption that humans are morally capable of choosing to follow Christ (whether unaided or merely "wooed" by the Holy Spirit), and see if the freedom of man's will can be exegeted from the Bible. It is God who chooses, the Son who dies for those who are chosen, and the Holy Spirit who regenerates the chosen and causes them to believe in the Son who died in their place. The unsaved are completely left out of the salvation scenario. The unsaved are not chosen by God, and therefore they will justly suffer for all eternity for their own sins, since Christ did not pay for them on the cross. Any other scenario breaks down when carried to its logical conclusion. We end up with either universalism, an impotent God, or the penalty for sin being paid for by Christ AND the unbeliever. --Joe! |
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3 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5748 | ||
Only this section of your comment will be addressed: "The problem here is that you are taking it as axiomatic that unregenerate man in any way has the ability to "choose God," that he is morally free to do so. Please show us in Scripture where it declares that man's will is free in this regard." Man's will is certainly not 'free' but GOD did send the Holy Spirit. This debate is old and tired! I always get into it because people actually think they are 'wise' enough to understand the intricate workings of GOD, and perhaps I am hoping someone out there is wise enough. But usually people simply misinterpret Scripture in an attempt to feel like they understand. I hope you will show me the proof I am in need of! See John 16:8-11, "And, He (Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Now, if the HS convicts 'the world' it's safe to assume that 'the world' includes everyone; but I know you don't assume that! So, if the HS convicts 'the world' and the ruler of 'this world' is judged, what part of 'the world' did satan not rule over before he was judged? As I am sure you know, Rom 3:10-18 states clearly that we are(were) all under sin, doesn't that mean we were under the control of satan? I'm sure you know that these are the same exact words for 'world' in the Greek text, so there is no play on words here, at least there is no evidence of it in the Greek. So, if the HS convicts the world concerning sin, and if the world means everyone, doesn't everyone have the power, through the Holy Spirit, to choose Jesus Christ? |
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4 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5756 | ||
When we analyze a set of four verses of Scripture (such as the four you cited), it is always best to get a broader understanding of those verses by looking at the larger context of what is being said. In this case, let us look at John 14-17 to examine exactly what John's (and moreover Christ's) understanding of both what the "world" is and what the Spirit's role is. Does the fact that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin mean that everyone will be enabled to accept Christ? Well, in John 14:17 says that "the world cannot receive [Him], because it does not see Him or know Him., but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." Therefore, the world is unable to receive the Spirit, so that classifies the "world" in a different category than the disciples, whom Jesus is addressing. It says that the world does not see Him, doesn't even know Him! In John 14:26, we see that the Holy Spirit is the One who will teach the disciples all things. Therefore, the One whom the "world" doesn't even know will teach the disciples. I see no salvific interaction between the Spirit and the world yet. In John 15:18, the "world" will hate the disciples, just as it hates Christ. In the next verse, we see that the disciples are "not of the world," that Christ CHOSE them, and as a result, the world hates them. Therefore, we see reinforced a clear division between the world and the ones who are called by God. In verse 26 we see that the Spirit will testify about Christ with the disciples, but there is no indication that everyone will be free to accept the Spirit's testimony. In fact, Christ has just promised them the opposite from the world. Again in verse 16:13 we see that the Spirit will be the active guide to truth. If the Spirit is here to "try and convert everyone," why does our holy, sovereign God fail in his mission? Perhaps that isn't his mission after all... Verse 17:6 reinforces this: "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." Again, God GAVE them to Him out of the world. Who is consistently the active agent in bringing people out of the world? ALl througout the Bible, we see it is God who (unaided by our "free will") chooses individuals out of the world and gives them to Christ. Therefore, contrary to your post, the world does NOT include "everyone." Conviction of sin does not lead to ability to repent and choose Christ. It is merely a declaration of guilt and judgment, which is reinforced by passages such as Philippians 1:27-28. Our presence here on earth is not to "win all the lost." It is to proclaim God's truth, to be the Holy Spirit's visible instruments through which He calls the elect, and to be the embodiment of the "sign of destruction" to those who will die and face just punishment. Finally, it is not by man's wisdom that I claim to "understand the intricate workings of GOD." I have the Holy Spirit, as I assume you do; and I can read the Bible, as I am sure you can. The Bible is the source of our revelation, which brings us back to my previous question: is the notion of even a spark of spiritual life to choose to follow Christ a product of man's wisdom which man brings to the words of the Bible; or is it clearly revealed to be a trait that man possesses? If it is the latter, please enlighten us as to the support for it and also explain away passages such as Romans 3, written after Pentecost, which clearly states that man's spiritual condition is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Please demosntrate how anyone dead can do anything to save himself? This debate may be old and tired to you, but it does speak fundamentally to how we view God and how we conduct evangelism. It is highly important, even though it is not a salvific issue, that we get it right. How has God revealed his intentions with regard to salvation? What does the Bible have to say on man's supposed freedom? Take away the assumption that all men are equally aided by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ and see if the entirety of the New Testament supports such a thesis. Thanks for your comments! --Joe! |
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5 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Chris | 5775 | ||
Does the fact that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin mean that everyone will be enabled to accept Christ? Well, in John 14:17 says that "the world cannot receive [Him], because it does not see Him or know Him., but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." Therefore, the world is unable to receive the Spirit, so that classifies the "world" in a different category than the disciples, whom Jesus is addressing. It says that the world does not see Him, doesn't even know Him! No the world cannot ‘receive the Holy Spirit' if they do not know Jesus Christ. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the regeneration or the rebirth of the Christian, it is not, in my opinion, the ability of the HS to convict a sinner of their need for Christ. At this time the HS had not come to the world; therefore, NO ONE but the disciples could have received Him because only His disciples had accepted Him as their personal Savior, so yes, our Lord would consider the world different than the disciples. I personally consider the world different than the Church, but not because GOD decided to take me and not another; because I have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In John 15:18, the "world" will hate the disciples, just as it hates Christ. In the next verse, we see that the disciples are "not of the world," that Christ CHOSE them, and as a result, the world hates them. Therefore, we see reinforced a clear division between the world and the ones who are called by God. In verse 26 we see that the Spirit will testify about Christ with the disciples, but there is no indication that everyone will be free to accept the Spirit's testimony. In fact, Christ has just promised them the opposite from the world. Yes, the ‘world' will hate the disciples, but I consider this to be because Jn 3:19-20, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil HATES the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (Emphasis mine) The ‘world' is not regenerated the disciples are, yes they're different. The twelve certainly were chosen, we will discuss this shortly. In verse 15:26 who will the Spirit testify to? "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning." It does not sound like the Spirit is testifying to the disciples, because the disciples are to do the same type of testifying! Could it be that the HS and the disciples would be testifying to non-believers? |
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6 | Holy Spirit's power of Conviction | Rom 5:6 | Reformer Joe | 5787 | ||
Well, I agree with everything you wrote here, Chris. I also agree that the Holy Spirit testifies along with us both to believers and non-believers. For those who already believers, that is encouragement and exhortation. For those who will accept Christ (i.e. the elect), the followers of Christ are the ordained means or vehicles through which the message of the gospel is presented that they will accept. The Holy Spirit and those whom He indwells also testify to those who will die in their sins, convicting them of their sins as you said, but also glorifying God by speaking of His holiness and his justice, which they will face all too soon. Therefore, the the Christian message is to be proclaimed by all followers of Christ, even though some are not going to be regenerated and respond to that message. Either way, Christ is lifted up and our great God is glorified. And, of course, while I believe in unconditional election by God, he certainly hasn't sent out a photocopy of the Book of Life so that we know who will respond and who won't. And since God has turned around such hard cases at that Pharisee Saul, we certainly would be overstepping our bounds by trying to decide for ourselves who are the ones "chosen before the foundation of the world." Therefore, the Holy Spirit through us and with us gives testimony to all individuals to whom the Gospel is preached, but I do not think that logically leads to a human being's freedom to accept or reject Christ without first being supernaturally reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit. What do you think? --Joe! |
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