Results 1 - 17 of 17
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60957 | ||
Return To The Question ...................... Thanks for the clarification about Calvinist perspective. I don't think that I actually misunderstand it, but rather that I didn't explain my thought completely enough. I will try again. ................................... We both believe that God is sovereign and all powerful. Therefore, He could have created beings (humans) such as you have just described. They were all completely corrupted after the fall of Adam, and completely incapable of desiring relationship with God. Therefore, they would not choose God and would deserve Hell. Then God could, within that system, choose some of those beings as exceptions to that rule, and change them in such a way that they had to desire a relationship with God. Therefore, they would choose God and would deserve heaven (only by God's grace of changing them, and providing a way to salvation through Jesus). Thus everyone gets what they deserve (at least in one sense) ................................... However, it is also possible that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it. Their nature could be partially corrupted so that they have a tendancy to choose to reject God, but still have the ability to overcome that first instinct. Then some of them would choose to love God and would deserve heaven (only by God’s grace of providing a way to salvation through Jesus). But others would choose to reject God and His salvation and would deserve Hell. Thus everyone gets what they deserve (in a greater sense). ................................... So now to the original question. How does believing the second option to be true limit the sovereignity of God? Since God could have set it up either way, He is in complete control either way. For that matter, assuming the Arminian perspective is correct, God could still change His mind at any point and remove the freedom to choose again. Although we don’t believe that God would ever do that, He could. I am not asking you to believe Arminianism is correct, I am simply trying to explain that it is a possible explanation that keeps God’s soveriegnity intact. ................................... It seems to me that it is like a parent watching their child on a playground, but letting them choose whether to go down the little slide or the big slide. The parent is bigger and stronger, and could easily bar the child from one slide or the other. But it doesn’t make the parent any less big or less strong for them to allow the child pick either one. |
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2 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60977 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, I hate to be a pest but... You said: "It seems to me that it is like a parent watching their child on a playground, but letting them choose whether to go down the little slide or the big slide. The parent is bigger and stronger, and could easily bar the child from one slide or the other. But it doesn’t make the parent any less big or less strong for them to allow the child pick either one. In the case of salvation one of the slides goes straight into the pit of Hell! A loving parent would use any means at their disposal to prevent their Child from going down that slide. Your analogy also fails to take into consideration that God's Fatherhood is not universal. Yes, it is true that pertaing to creation He is in a sense the father of all men, but bear in mind also, that to become a child of God in a intimate and familial sense, one needs to be adopted by God. We are by nature "children of wrath", not innocent children. We are wicked sinners, haters of God, idolators, murderers, fornicators and the like, engaged in active warfare agaist God and He against us. The only reason anyone is still walking around this planet and not confined to the "pit" is for the sake of the elect, those who he has foreordained to adoption. Why do you think the world hates christians? They say Christianity is exclusive and narrow minded because we say that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Calvinism is in turn depised by many christians today. They say we are exclusive and narrow minded because we say that No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them and that the Father draws only those who He hs purposed from all eternity to give to the Son. Why do calvinists persist in such an unpopular message? John 17:6-9 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; John |
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3 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60979 | ||
Please Answer My Question .................................................... Dear John, Instead of answering why God’s sovereignity is diminished by letting humans all have the ability to choose whether to lover him or not, you switched the discussion to whether that would be loving or not. I agree that at first glance it would seem that any loving parent would not let their child go down a slide into hell. That is a seperate issue though, and one that we could talk about in a different thread, because I think that I disagree with you. .................................................... However, the question that I want you to answer is not whether God would be less loving to allow that kind of choice, but whether He would be less sovereign. Would He be less powerful, or have less control of the universe. I am proposing that He would not. Calvinists would usually say yes. I am simply asking why do they think that? .................................................... P.S. Don’t worry about being a pest, I’ve got a younger sister (married and moved away now), and have a life of experience learning patience from dealing with pestiness :) |
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4 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60981 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, Part One It does not matter what I think. The only thing that matters is what does the Bible say. I do not say this to be clever, or to appear to be pious. I say it to remind us all of our duty before God. OK. To your question " Would He be less powerful, or have less control of the universe. I am proposing that He would not. Calvinists would usually say yes. I am simply asking why do they think that? ..................................". I take your question as: ...What is the Scriptural basis for believing as you do? Well we begin at the beginning with the fall of man and by comparing spiritual things with spiritual we have arrived at certain conclusions. We calvinists do not claim infallibilty for our doctrines, however lacking Biblical refutation we accept them for what they are, which is the best evidence that fallible men have been able to glean about God from the words He has given us in the 66 books of the Bible. We hold that the Bible alone is infallible. The following is a portion from the WCF which deals with man's corruption and why we say it is total in it's extent. IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8) and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10) [8] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ROM 7:18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. [9] GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [10] JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. MAT 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. Not exactly apicture of innocent children is it my friend? I say this in love for you my brother. John |
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5 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61186 | ||
Does Part 2 Answer The Question? ................... Dear John, OK so you quoted a lot of verses that talk about how the sinful nature of man is stinky. I agree, but that doesn't answer my question about God's sovereignity. ......................................................... I assume that since you headed this post with "part 1" that there must be a "part 2". Are you going to share that? ......................................................... I am a bit surprised that although I posted this question many days ago, I have gotten so little response. I would appreciate it if the resident Calvinists on the forum could either explain why the Arminian perspective decreases the sovereignity of God, or admit that the Arminian perspective of God's sovereignity is not neccessarily less than that of the Calvinists. Once again, I am not asking anyone to believe either Calvinism or Arminianism, only to believe that both can have equally high views of God's sovereignity. |
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6 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61206 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, A cursory glance at the number of posts and replys I have engaged in may provide an explanation for my tardiness in repling to your post. Frankly, I'm overwhelmed! Keep in mind as well that to present everything at once would be impossible. I am convinced that before anyone will be persuaded of the Scriptural foundation of election, they must first be aware of the hopeless estate of fallen man. The verses I quoted were to prove that very point. If you still believe that man has an inherent spark of spiritual goodness or anything that can contribute to salvation then the road ahead to agreement will be, at best, a rocky one. What do you believe concerning man's inability or ability regarding salvation? Does God do 99 percent but man must supply the all important final 1 percent. Or is Salvation 100 percent the work of God? John |
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7 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61209 | ||
Why don't you answer my question ................................ Dear John, I understand that you are overwhelmed right now, you do seem to have a lot on your plate forum wise. If you don’t have time to answer my question right now, that’s OK; I can wait. However, please don’t just keep asking me more questions without ever answering mine. ................................... It is not relevant to my question whether God does 100 percent of salvation, or if God does 99 percent and man does 1 percent. God could have set up salvation to work however He wanted. After all, He’s God. My question is simply, “Is God less sovereign (powerful, in control, etc.) if He chooses to set up a universe in such a way that all people can choose to accept God’s love and return it or not?” ................................... I hope that when you get the chance you will have the opportunity to explain how this possibility (even if you don’t believe in it) diminishes God’s sovereign nature. |
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8 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61231 | ||
Okay, Your question is: "Is God less sovereign (powerful, in control, etc.) if He chooses to set up a universe in such a way that all people can choose to accept God’s love and return it or not?” It is impossible to be less or more soverign. Just as it is impossible to be les or more perfect. Your either soverign or you're not. So, allow me to rephrase your question. Does "freewillism" (the belief that places salvation in the hands of man, in that it is man who elects himself and God foreseeing this act of man then elects him also) impune or detract in any way from God's sovereign rule over His creation? Yes. Because it makes no sense! God is omniscient, therfore He knows everything that will happen from eternity. On what basis then does God know anything? Because He knew it was going to happen because He knows the future? Or is it because He fore-ordained all that has and will happen to happen? If He knows it's going to happen, does this view not see God as merely reacting to things outside of His control? And does not this conclusion bring into question His Omnipotence? Things are happening that He did'nt want to happen. Will God have to go to plan B? No of course not. Acts 4:27,28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. Does this mean that some things are pre-ordained but not others? No. "Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." John |
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9 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61251 | ||
A Different View ................................... Dear John, First I want to thank you for sharing your answer to my question. Hopefully, we can examine it together and come to some sort of consensus. You begin by pointing out that being sovereign is an all or nothing state, and not one that can be qualified. Point well taken. I looked it up in the dictionary, and it said “supreme in power”. Therefore, I agree with you that one either is supreme (the most powerful, in control, etc.) or one is not. ................................... Therefore, let me rephrase my question (your rephrasing of it was a little confusing to me). So my new question is, “Would it negate God’s sovereignity to build a universe that included a means of salvation (Christ’s sacrifice on the cross) that was available to everyone, and then populated it with human beings, who God created with the CAPABILITY to choose to accept or reject that salvation?” If God created the universe this way would He cease to be the most powerful? If a person chooses to not excersize their ability to control others does that mean that their ability to control ceases to exist? ................................... Once again, let’s not get into other issues like foreknowledge, etc. I am strictly interested in determining, if either perspective was correct, would it be possible for God to be sovereign. |
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10 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61268 | ||
Sir Pent, You said "my new question is,Would it negate God’s sovereignity to build a universe that included a means of salvation (Christ’s sacrifice on the cross) that was available to everyone, and then populated it with human beings, who God created with the CAPABILITY to choose to accept or reject that salvation?” The way I see it, for God to allow a creature to share His sovereignhty in any way would lead to chaos. He would have created a frankenstien. It would negate His position of " THE Sovreign One". A king does not willfully permit rebellion among His subjects nor does He permit them to share in the power of the Crown. A soverign King rules! He does not ask for a vote. We are sinful and rebellious creatures that do not like to think that we are controlled by anyone, even God. But as we are believers we must accept Scripture as our final authority. It is a mystery that God foreodrains all that happens but man is also resonsible for what he does or does not do. But the Bible says it. (see Acts 4:27,28) "If God created the universe this way would He cease to be the most powerful?" No. God does not change. He is immutable. If a person chooses to not excersize their ability to control others does that mean that their ability to control ceases to exist? No. He could re-establish his control at will. (At least if he was powerfull enough to do so.) John |
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11 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61276 | ||
We’re making progress ..................................... Dear John, Thank you again for your response. I think that we may be very close to agreement after all. You agree with me that no matter how God created the universe, He does not change so He would be just as powerful. You also agree with me that a person’s control does not cease to exist when they choose not to use it. Therefore, I am led to conclude that IF the Arminian perspective was correct (that God created the universe in a way that allowed people to rebel, by not using His ability to control everything completely), that He would still be sovereign. ..................................... It does appear that you believe this would not make sense. After all a king who is all powerful would not allow his subjects to rebel so why would God? This is a perfectly valid question, and one that those who hold to Arminian perspective must deal with. However, as you have said earlier in another post, if something is in scripture, then it must be believed whether it makes sense or not. And since Arminians believe that their perspective is supported in scripture, I assume that you would understand where they are coming from. ..................................... So it seems like we are in agreement that whether a person agrees with Calvin or Arminius, there are some things that don’t make sense, but it is possible to interpret scripture in a way that supports the belief, and that both systems can be consistent with a SOVEREIGN God. I’m sure you’ll let me know if you disagree with any of this, but it seems to me that perhaps we have reached a consensus point across this great theological divide :) |
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12 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61283 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, As as sweet as consensus sounds to me (especially after umpteen posting) with an audible sigh I must alas, disagree with your conclusion. This will no doubt shock no one who knows me. We do agree on the immutable aspect of the nature of God. And that is no small point! We also agree that a person in power may choose not to exercise it over others and yet not lose any part of that power, personally. You concluded: I am led to conclude that IF the Arminian perspective was correct (that God created the universe in a way that allowed people to rebel, by not using His ability to control everything completely), that He would still be sovereign. If these were the only two points then you would be correct. But your points are based on assumptions that fit neatly into your particular theology ( A calvinist could do the same). But how does it get us any closer to what we all want, which is the TRUTH? I am aware of the verses that are used to prove the arminian position and have addressed many of them my self on this forum. So going over them again may not be the best use of our time. What I would really appreciate is for someone to address my question regarding 1 Cor 2:14. Unless I'm mistken, Benjamite was really the only one who addressed the verse directly and has ffollowed up on my reply! John |
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13 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Pastor Glenn | 61290 | ||
John, 1 Cor 2:14 DOES NOT APPLY to choosing Jesus Christ. This scripture, in context, refers to spiritual growth AFTER salvation. After salvation we still have a natural nature that wars against the flesh. He is saying for us (believers) to walk after (strive for) spiritual things. When we allow ourselves to indulge in drinking, cursing, lusting, or other carnality, we are walking after the flesh. God has separated the choice for Jesus. This is what it means by His being THE LIGHT. This is what the old testament types and shadows refer to. This is why there is only one way to salvation. Everyone knows. Everyone. We all have the spirit of life: Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. That spirit of life is what is refered to in John 1:9That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[NKJV] Rom 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. "whom He foreknew, He also predestined " We are only predestined because God "foreknew" we would choose Christ. God Bless, Pastor Glenn |
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14 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61296 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, Please observe the context in which 2:14 appears. 1 Cor 2:7-13 "but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory...Note: Who is that doe not understand"? those who crucified the Lord...but just as it is written, THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us (believers) God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things,even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we (believers) have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we (believers) may know the things freely given to us (believers) by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words". Paul thus far has explained why those who crucified the Lord did so (because they could not understand because they had the spirit of the world). He aso tells us that believers do understand the "the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;" Based on what he said in v's 7-13 Paul conludes: "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,...Here he identifys those who do cannot understand (those who have the spirit of the world)... for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, BECAUSE they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual (because of the presence of the Holy Spirit) appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD,THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we (believers) have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 2: 14-16. You said: "God has separated the choice for Jesus. This is what it means by His being THE LIGHT. This is what the old testament types and shadows refer to. This is why there is only one way to salvation. Everyone knows. Everyone." I agree that everyone does know. And when the unrepentent sinner stands before the Judgment seat of God he will have no excuse for his continued rebellion against his Lord and King. But mere knowledge of the truth is not enough! Even the demons know the truth and they tremble. A person may even believe that Jesus is Lord and yet perish in their sins. What is requied is the kind of belief that God alone can give. That kind is accompanied by true repentence and faith which drives a guilty sinner to cry out to Christ for salvation! That also causes him to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus. You also said that: "We all have the spirit of life". Would you tell me what you mean by "all"? Thanks, John |
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15 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Pastor Glenn | 61314 | ||
John, Here is a similar scripture: Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Why tell a believer to walk after the Spirit. Wouldn't that be automatic for someone that is "Elect". It sounds like a command (with the choice to refuse or obey). You said: "You also said that: "We all have the spirit of life". Would you tell me what you mean by "all"? " All men (believers or not) have the spirit of life: Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. The point is that all men have the "light of life" to make a fair choice for Jesus: John 1:4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. I must confess that I am just starting the "really" understand some of these scriptures myself. I pray that others will much more understand and expound. God Bless, Pastor Glenn |
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16 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 61321 | ||
Dear Pastor Glenn, You quoted Gal 15:16 and from your interpretation of it asked: Why tell a believer to walk after the Spirit. Wouldn't that be automatic for someone that is "Elect". It sounds like a command (with the choice to refuse or obey). Do you think that the elect are robots? Of couse not. The term elect simply refers to all of the saints, The corporate body of Christ. Matt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Mark 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Luke 18:7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; Do you, who are a shepard, really wonder at Paul's exhortations to the church at Galatia? You said: "Why tell a believer to walk after the Spirit.". I am almost certain that every Sunday you insruct your flock in the same manner, to remind and encourage them. There may be those who come to church but are still unregenerate, which is why the gospel should be preached in every semon. As a comfort to the saints and as a warning and a life saver to the others. But my strongest concern is your contention that all men have the spirit of life and therefore can believe. Paul uses the term once in Rom 8:2" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." But here it is a reference to The Holy Ghost. Your proof textis Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." This is pretty thin evidence to build a new doctrine on, don't you think? What other texts do you have regarding "the spirit of life"? John |
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17 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Pastor Glenn | 61335 | ||
John, You said:"But my strongest concern is your contention that all men have the spirit of life and therefore can believe. Paul uses the term once in Rom 8:2" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." But here it is a reference to The Holy Ghost. Your proof text is Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." This is pretty thin evidence to build a new doctrine on, don't you think? ..." This is not a "new doctrine". I thought every Christian knew that without the spirit of life, the body dies: James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. "...What other texts do you have regarding "the spirit of life"? " John 1:4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit, not air. God is a spirit, He does not breath air.) of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit[7:22 Septuagint and Vulgate omit [of the spirit.] ] of life, all that was on the dry land, died. Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?[3:21 Septuagint, Syriac, Targum, and Vulgate read [Who knows whether the spirit ... goes upward, and whether ... goes downward to the earth?] ] James 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If the choice for Jesus is said to be "works", then this scripture applies: James 2:17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[4] works, and I will show you my faith by my[5] works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[6] 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[7] And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. God bless, Pastor Glenn |
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