Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60892 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, You wrote: "God could have said that because Christ died for the sins of the world then Tom over here is going to believe in Me and be saved no matter what Tom’s personal choice would have been. Meanwhile I will leave Jerry over there unable to believe in Me, and Jerry will go to hell, regardless of what his personal choice would have been. In my understanding this is the Calvinist perspective." Sir Pent, you misunderstand the calvinist perspective. God's choice in election is not arbitrary but is founded on His good pleasure. In other words His choice as well as everything He does is perfect, wise, holy and just. Believe it, when the world goes before the judgement eat of God, all will have their mouths shut for they will be without excuse. When Adam fell all of his decendants fell with him (Rom 5:15) Including both Tom and Jerry. In their fallen state, our two heroes are considered by God as "children of wrath" (Eph 2:3). Neither one wants anything to do with God (Rom 3:11) They are rebels and enemies whose true allegiance is to their "father", the devil. (John 8:44) Now God would have been perfectly just in throwing Tom, Jerry and all the rest of mankind into hell because of their sins against Him. God is JUST. But He is also mercifull and out of mercy alone He chose to save Tom. And Jerry He left to follow the desires of his wicked heart which was to sin and hate God. If you ask me why He chose to save Tom, but left Jerry to rebel, I would say it was for God's own reasons that He has not given us to know. But Paul says in Rom 9:22,23 " What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,". So, you see, Jerry (a natural man) would never accept the foolishness of the gospel and is not even able to judge between right and wrong when it comes to spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14). Tom on the other hand was blessed by God, and was visited by the Holy Spirit. His heart of stone was replaced with a heart of flesh. He was drawn by the Father to Jesus Christ thru the ministry of the Word and for the first time in his life he was able to recieve it and believe it. For now he understood spiritual truth! Therefore, the situation of a natural man desiring God but being rejected on the basis of predestination to election, is not possible and unscriptural. "For all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved". Jerry would never make a personal choice in favor of Christ because he would never desire to do so! That is the calvinistic perspective. God Bless, John |
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2 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60957 | ||
Return To The Question ...................... Thanks for the clarification about Calvinist perspective. I don't think that I actually misunderstand it, but rather that I didn't explain my thought completely enough. I will try again. ................................... We both believe that God is sovereign and all powerful. Therefore, He could have created beings (humans) such as you have just described. They were all completely corrupted after the fall of Adam, and completely incapable of desiring relationship with God. Therefore, they would not choose God and would deserve Hell. Then God could, within that system, choose some of those beings as exceptions to that rule, and change them in such a way that they had to desire a relationship with God. Therefore, they would choose God and would deserve heaven (only by God's grace of changing them, and providing a way to salvation through Jesus). Thus everyone gets what they deserve (at least in one sense) ................................... However, it is also possible that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it. Their nature could be partially corrupted so that they have a tendancy to choose to reject God, but still have the ability to overcome that first instinct. Then some of them would choose to love God and would deserve heaven (only by God’s grace of providing a way to salvation through Jesus). But others would choose to reject God and His salvation and would deserve Hell. Thus everyone gets what they deserve (in a greater sense). ................................... So now to the original question. How does believing the second option to be true limit the sovereignity of God? Since God could have set it up either way, He is in complete control either way. For that matter, assuming the Arminian perspective is correct, God could still change His mind at any point and remove the freedom to choose again. Although we don’t believe that God would ever do that, He could. I am not asking you to believe Arminianism is correct, I am simply trying to explain that it is a possible explanation that keeps God’s soveriegnity intact. ................................... It seems to me that it is like a parent watching their child on a playground, but letting them choose whether to go down the little slide or the big slide. The parent is bigger and stronger, and could easily bar the child from one slide or the other. But it doesn’t make the parent any less big or less strong for them to allow the child pick either one. |
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3 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60971 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, I think we need further clarification. You wrote: "Then God could, within that system, choose some of those beings as exceptions to that rule,." No. First their are no exceptions to the rule, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therfore all are justlly condemned without exception. Christian Tom's sin had to be paid for as well as Pagan Jerry's sin. The difference between these two sinners is that Tom's sin was paid for by Christ while Jerry had to pay for his sin himself.( Romans 9 shows how this preferential treatment by God is not at all unfair on God's part.) Also, I would not call it a system or portray it as having occured over a period of time, but would say rather that it is God's Eternal Plan for mankind. That is, He puposed and forordained salvation for Tom and damnation for Jerry. Keep your shirt on now! Let me explain further. God did not force Tom into heaven or Jerry into Hell. Each one chose freely from the desire of their own hearts It is at the same time true that God did choose to show mercy to one but justice to the other. Jerry got what he deserved. Tom did not!!! No one can deserve God's mercy. Rom 9:18 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. Now, our human reason and sense of fairness might say: Thats unfair to Pagan Jerry! How can God choose Tom who is just as wicked and rotten, if not worse than Jerry? or as the Scripture puts it in . Rom 9:19-21 "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?". These are hard words to recieve. They fly in the face of human reason and democracy and our sense of fairplay. But if we are to boldly proclaim to others "The Bible said it, and that settles it" we must believe it. Prov 3:5: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding". You wrote: "However, it is also possible that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it. Their nature could be partially corrupted so that they have a tendancy to choose to reject God, but still have the ability to overcome that first instinct. Then some of them would choose to love God and would deserve heaven (only by God’s grace of providing a way to salvation through Jesus). But others would choose to reject God and His salvation and would deserve Hell. Thus everyone gets what they deserve (in a greater sense). ................................... " If this were true then it would also be true that some fallen men are better, or wiser, or smarter than others in understanding spiritual things. 1 Cor 4:7 " For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?". Which brings us back to the question of why some believe but others do not. If Tom had faith he must have recieved it from God. Tom will not be able to boast about how he deserved salvation because God found him to have an inherent spark of goodness or desire for God within himself. No! He along with the rest of the elect, will fall on their faces before Jesus Christ our Saviour and cast their crowns at His feet. There will be not even a moment of hesitation while one saint considers "Well....I did make a decision out of my own free will did'nt I? Don't I deserve even a little credit after all I was only partially corrupt? To God Alone be the Glory, John |
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4 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60978 | ||
Please Answer My Question ......................................................... Dear John, At this point I don’t think that we need further clarification. I think that you understand what I am asking. I would therefore appreciate an answer to that question. However, just in case I will clarify a little more. ......................................................... You implied that I said there was an exception to the rule that “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” This is not what I said or believe. The expression, “the exception to the rule” simply means that one thing is the standard outcome, and another thing (which occurs less often) is a different outcome. I was simply saying that within the Calvinist system the standard outcome is that all people deserve to go to die for their sins and go to hell. The other outcome, which occurs less often is that some people accept that Jesus died for thier sins, and they go to heaven. ......................................................... You also didn't like the word system. The word system is simply defined: plan, method, orderly arrangement. I think that it is an accurate word. You yourself called it “God’s Eternal Plan”, and it is definately the orderly arrangement of theology and biblical interpretation used by those who believe in it. I believe that I have accurately portrayed the Calvinist perspective, and said that it is possible for God to have created the universe in this way. ......................................................... Then you respond to the Arminian perspective by saying that it is impossible for God to create the universe in the way that is believed by those who agree with that tradition. I know your high view of God’s sovereignity, and am confused that you find Him incapable of doing this. Once again, I am not asking you to believe that He did, only that He could. ......................................................... I hope that this makes things clear for you, and I sincerely look forward to hearing your (and others such as Reformer Joe, Lionstrong, etc.) thoughts about my big question. Why does God’s soveriegnity have to be dimished by believing that He allows His creation to all be capable of choosing to love Him? Once again, a parent is not any less strong or big because they choose not to use their strength to keep their child from picking which slide to go down in the park. |
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