Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Reformer Joe | 60898 | ||
You wrote: "The Calvinist perspective often gets hung up on the idea that if a human has to ?accept? God?s free gift of salvation, then it takes away from the sovreignity of God or the effectiveness of Christ?s sacrifice." A human being DOES have to receive Christ by faith. Calvinists do not deny that. Because of the fall, however (humanity's fault), unregenerate humans are morally incapable of wanting Jesus Christ. You wrote: "Meanwhile I will leave Jerry over there unable to believe in Me, and Jerry will go to hell, regardless of what his personal choice would have been. In my understanding this is the Calvinist perspective." Jerry's personal choice in that circumstance will be to reject Christ. He makes a very real choice. Jerry gets to do what he wants with Jesus Christ." You wrote: "However, I believe that instead God chose to have Christ?s death on the cross be sufficient to take away the sins of anyone who accepted that forgiveness." So do Calvinists. Who will accept that forgiveness? Read Romans 3:10-18. Read 1 Corinthians 2. Read Romans 8:6-10. You wrote: 'This does not take away from God?s sovereignity at all. It is not that God was unable to save people without their ?help? (even using the Calvinist perspective that simply accepting a gift is ?help? or ?work?). Instead it is that God chose to have salvation work that way.' Scripture, please? --Joe! |
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2 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | EdB | 60901 | ||
Joe Your saying Jerry can't not accept Jesus but made a choice to reject him. That doesn't make sense to me. EdB |
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3 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60950 | ||
Dear Ed, Reason is the handmaiden of theology. In other words: God said it. I believe it. Ask: "What is written?" and then yield your reason captive unto the obedience of Christ, of His Word and of faith. (2 Cor 10:5) "We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ," When all is said and done, this fact remains: Jerry the reprobate is free to act after the desires of his own wicked and God hating heart. It is also true that he is unable to do otherwise and unless God gives him a new heart, Jerry will not turn to Christ. I know that this is an upsetting doctrine because it upset me terribly! I was taught to believe that salvation was my choice and that it was up to me whether or not to recieve God's free offer of grace. And I did believe it for many years. Now it is true that many of the things I read were confusing to me. But I figured that sooner or later if God was willing He would clear them up for me. I must say Ed, with God as my witness, when I surrenderd to God's Written Word and put reason in it's proper place many of those puzzling passages became crystal clear. I discovered that I had been sujecting God's Word to the "Court of Human Reason" and then demanding that it comply with what seemed fair to me. I am not saying that I now have perfect understanding (God forbid such arrogance and presumption) for I am still a sinner and as such continue to impose my own sense of right and wrong upon Scripture. But sanctification is a process and because of His grace I have hope for tommorrow. John |
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4 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60952 | ||
A Different View ..................................... I agree with John that Scripture is and should be a higher authority than our ability to reason. However, I would suggest that the Bible is not completely clear on some subjects such as predestination and free will. In these cases, it makes the most sense to interpret the scripture with the meaning that is most logical, fits with church tradition, and our own personal experience (in that order). ..................................... I understand that my colleagues Joe, John, and Lionstrong have a way of seeing scripture that supports Calvinism. At the same time, my colleagues Mekarios, Tim Moran, and EdB have a way of seeing scripture that supports Arminanism. I don't think that any of them would say that the others are blatantly ignoring or contradicting an obvious teaching from the Bible. If it was obvious, it would not have been an issue for centuries in the church, for people smarter and closer to God than us. ..................................... So since both sides have extensive Scriptural support, it does not benefit anyone for either side to simply claim that their view is in the Bible and it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. |
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5 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60960 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, The systems of theology that arose from the teachings of men may be helpfulor harmful. Afterall, Arminius and Calvin as well as every other writer after John the Apostle were fallible writers and teachers. Therefore, the conscience of the christian is bound only to the teaching of Scripture alone. Unfortunately, we have a strong propensity to read the Word thru imperfect glasses. Our understanding can be corrupted by the traditions of our denominations and the culture of our times as well as sin. How then can one ever arrive at the truth? Our only hope of attaining a full understanding of any of God's truths (doctrines) is by divine enlightenment. Most of us pray for the Holy Spirit to grant us this gift as we prepare to study and search the Word. I believe that it pleases God to enable us to labor diligently and persistantly as a means of actually attaining that enlightenment. Personaly, I have never had an angel from heaven or a vision of the risen Christ appear before my eyes. Nevertheless, I have found myself fully persuaded (contrary to my natural reason and inclination) to embrace certain doctrines that I have come to believe are Biblical. To me it is as much of a miracle as the parting of the waters or Creation itself. I view my salvation in the same way. It was a miracle wrought by God. I was in darkness and God turned the light on for me. Not only did He turn the light on but He also created in me a new heart so that I could and would believe. And so I return to my original question (for which I have yet to recieve a Scriptualy based answer from the "free willists): In the light of 1 Cor 2:14, How then can any man be saved? I say it requires a miraculous work of God in which He raises spiritualy dead people to life by placing within them new hearts. Hearts of flesh that yearn for Christ. Salvation is of the Lord and He never fails. Matt 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He WILL save HIS people from THEIR sins." (my caps). Can the will of mere man defeat the will of Almighty God? Are you kidding? Of course not! God Bless, John |
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6 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60969 | ||
Answer To Original Question ............................. So how can any man be saved. I think that there is actually very little disagreement on the answer to that question. Those who agree with Calvin or Wesley would both say that salvation is only possible through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. They would also both say that the only reason why anyone would accept that forgiveness is that God draws us to himself. ......................................... Therefore, the scriptures that both sides would use, would be much the same. I did a quick search on the web and found the following two websites that cover the Wesleyan perspective on this including several scriptures: http://www.imarc.cc/harted4ap.html and: http://www.revneal.org/Writings/on.htm ......................................... The only difference is that Calvin calls this drawing "predestination", and says, that it is irresistable and limited to a select group of people. Wesley calls it "prevenient grace", and says that it can be resisted, but is poured out on all people. |
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7 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | John Reformed | 60972 | ||
Sir Pent, This is a non-answer. Please answer it in such a way that the answer satisfys the claims of 1 Cor 2:14. In an earlier post I disagreed with your interpretation of the verse in question.I also supplied my own which included an explanation of why I thought you mistaken an offered my own understanding. You did not reply. Therefore I was forced to assume that you either agreed with me or you still disagreed but had not yet been able to offer me correction. John |
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8 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 60975 | ||
Personal Note ......................................................... Dear John, I would appreciate a little more grace here :) I apologize if I missed an earlier post of yours that dealt with the exact same interpretation of this verse that I proposed. I admit that I haven’t read every post in this thread (of course, it is pretty long). Please let me know the post number and I will try to respond to it. ......................................................... I actually was not following this thread really closely for a while when it started, because it seemed to be just another thread in a long list of threads endlessly debating the Calvinist / Arminianist perspectives on this forum. For the most part, I have decided to just ignore those at this point. However, in this case, I thought there was a unique opportunity to try to bring some consensus between the two viewpoints. ......................................................... Thus my answer to your question that focused on the similarities rather than the differences. Then the response that I get from you is that my post doesn’t even qualify as an answer. Up to this point, I have found our discussion to be rational and gentle. As this is the first thread that we have had significant interaction with each other, and I have thus far appreciated your method of communicating ideas. I hope that this doesn’t indicate that you wish to start insulting my posts. |
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