Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | FTimA | 64679 | ||
The context of the passage you cite actually begins in chapter 5. But we must back up even more to Genesis 22. Gen 22:15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. This is the beginning of the old covenant. In Exodus we see, Ex 6:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land." 2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them. 4 "I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned. 5 "Furthermore I have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, because the Egyptians are holding them in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. 6 "Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. God through Moses delivers Israel out of Egypt. Moses has received God's law and is about to deliver it to Israel. We pick up in Deuteronomy 5. Deut 5:1 Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. After delivering what is commonly called "the law of Moses", Moses closes by saying, Deut 6:24 "So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25 "It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us. Moses then prepares them for what they are about to experience in Deuteronomy chapter 7. Deut 7:1 "When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, 2 and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. 3 "Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons. 4 "For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you. 5 "But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. After giving Israel these instructions he tells them why they are to do this, Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Now, fast forward to the time of Christ. Jesus instructs his disciples to go out and preach the gospel. Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Jesus did this because Israel at that time was God's chosen people, they had His law, the prophets who foretold of Jesus' coming, they were to be first to hear the gospel. But what happened? Israel rejected Jesus (not all but enough). Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. During this time, there were really only to groups of people, God's people, Israel, and Gentiles. As is evident above, Paul said that the Jews repudiated the word of God so he turned to the Gentiles. So what is the conclusion then? We have all people made up of Jews and Gentiles. The word of God was given to the Jews, God's chosen people, but they rejected it. It was then given to the Gentiles. Doesn't this then include all people? |
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2 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | John Reformed | 64697 | ||
Dear FTima, Thank you for the providing your arguement based on interpretation of the texts. It alone is the ultimate authority. You concluded: "We have all people made up of Jews and Gentiles. The word of God was given to the Jews, God's chosen people, but they rejected it. It was then given to the Gentiles." It is important to keep in mind that Israel was God's chosen people but they were not all chosen unto salvation: Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." Both boys were "sons" of Abraham but one was preferred over the other. Why? Rom 9:11 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice (KJV: election) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,". You quoted Matt 10:6 "but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The lost sheep! The jews did not understand the words of Jesus. In fact He preached to them in parables knowing they would not understand! Mark 4:12 "so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN." You asked: "Doesn't this then include all people?" The gospel is to be proclaimed universally, but only those whom God quickens will understand. Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. It is by God's grace we are given spiritual life (a heart of flesh) so that we might believe. John |
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3 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | FTimA | 64778 | ||
I must respond in two posts because of content limitation. Romans 9:13 is an interesting scripture and again, context is key here. Beginning in the first verse, Paul assures his readers that his testimony is true and begins to express grief for his "brethren". Who is he referring to? Verse 4 tells us they are the Israelites, or Jews. Also in verse 4, Paul plainly states that the 'adoption' belonged to them. What is this adoption? It is the relationship they could have with God through obedience to the law. Verse 6, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God (those that are circumcised in the flesh, fta), but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants (those that have obeyed God, fta)." You say, "Both boys were "sons" of Abraham but one was preferred over the other. Why?" I must simply say it was God's plan. Gen 25:23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger." This you state correctly in citing Rom 9:11 "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice (KJV: election) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,". God's purpose is at work here. Paul then says, Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. This passage was, at least for me, a little difficult to understand. Paul asks, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!" What we may call injustice in our eyes does not matter. We are God's creation and we have no say in what He chooses to do to implement His plan. This is explained in Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. Many times in the story of Moses' dealings with Pharoah it is said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Ex 7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 2 Ex 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 3 Ex 7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is stubborn; he refuses to let the people go. 4 Ex 7:22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 5 Ex 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. 6 Ex 9:12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. 7 Ex 9:35 Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses. 8 Ex 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go. 9 Ex 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 10 Ex 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 11 Ex 14:4 "Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." And they did so. Hence the statement Paul makes, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." With this in mind it is easy to understand the situation that occurred between Jacob and Esau. It was always God's plan that Esau "despise his birthright" and that Jacob receive it. Works not being necessary for salvation is the issue here. Where in the bible does it say that baptism is a work? |
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4 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | John Reformed | 64794 | ||
Dear FTima, Because I believe that salvation is the work of God in saving a people which He gives to His Son, I also see that the works of righteousness being performed in us by the Holy Spirit. In other words: God has an elect people that He calls. Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.” Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.” John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.” John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.” (John 6:44, 65). God having chosen and called His elect does not then leave it up to them to finish the job through their own works. He actually has ordained that they bear the fruit of their new relationship as "adopted sons". Eph 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them". Bartism is one of those "good works" that a true believer will perform in obedience to God's command. A person who professes faith in Christ but refuses baptism is not displaying the fruit of regeneration. I would have grave doubts concerning the legitemacy of his claim of being a christian. In my denomination such a person would not be allowed to partake in the Lord's supper. They would also be denied membership in the church. This is an act of mercy and pity upon that disobediant one refusing baptism. We chastise him in the hope that pehaps (God willing)he will repent and come to the knowledge of the truth. I understand baptism as being a work of the Spirit in the believer. He gives us the desire and the will to be baptised. John Reformed |
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