Results 1 - 3 of 3
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89743 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! I didn't take it in a bad way my friend! But, I have never hid my head in the sand either! :-) You asked: "THerefore, my challenge stands as is: Show me on what basis anyone is judged for their sin if Christ paid for every sin of every person on the Cross. Right there the Arminian has some serious logical problems in his position. Yet not one word has been said in any attempt to offer a Biblical explanation. I can explain it, but then again, you have to be a big bad Calvinist for the Atonement (THE CORNERSTONE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!) to be a logical aspect of the faith." Two points concerning this challenge. First of all, even if your logical issue was correct, you have still demonstrated my point. The conclusions you are drawing are based upon 'logic' and 'inference', not what the text actually says. Secondly, I have addressed this point several times, but I don't remember if I have with you or not. :-) The benefits of the atonement are an objective fact which must be received subjectively. Consider the following: Rom. 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." Simply put, the benefits of the atonement are a gift which must be received. Those who receive it find forgiveness for this sins and have passed over from death to life. Those who did not receive are still in their sins and will be judged for their sins. Scripture nowhere says that the atonement means that people will now not be responsible for their sins if they reject God's grace. That is my understanding. Now, if you can show me a Scripture which says (not that you imply says) differently, I would be more than willing to change my position. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89953 | ||
Hello again Tim! OK. I wish this was real time so we could ask the questions before the 20 rabbit trails develop. I know you're not doing it on purpose, but nevertheless, it happens and it seems like we're on two different pages. Regarding logic and the atonement. I CAN support my position very effectively with an abundance of Scripture, but that Scripture will be meaningless to you if we don't define a few things under common agreement. So for now, let's make defining ATONEMENT the main priority before we move on. Also, I agree with you 100 percent that we should never place logic alone above God or His revealed Word. But neither should we believe the ILLOGICAL can be supported by Scripture. I don't believe God is the author of confusion. Within confusion there are contradictions. So God is not the author of contradictions. Please explain to me the following your opinion in as much detail as possible: What was the purpose of the Atonement? What effect did the atonement have on the world? When does the atonement become effective? Was Christ's atonement vicarious or symbolic? Hopefully this will be a good starting place. Also, in future discussions on this topic, please keep in mind (but no need to answer now) this questions: Did He or didn't He?? Did Christ pay (atone) for all the sins of the world or didn't He? Did He satisfy the wrath of God or didn't He? Gentlemen, START YOUR ENGINES! In Christ, JIBBS |
||||||
3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89956 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! Real time would be much better! :-) I was going to stop posting on election issues for awhile, but since your post really deals with the atonement, I will go ahead and respond to it. I'm not sure if I can answer all of your questions, but I will take a detailed look at what Scripture actually says about atonement. The concept of 'atonement', at least in the New Testament is formed from a group of four words. 1) hilaskomai (Strongs 2433) - Verb. 2) hilasmos (Strongs 2434) - Noun. 3) hilasterion (Strongs 2435) - Noun. 4) hileos (Strongs 2436) - Advjective. Now, rather than speculate about what atonement means, let's look at how Scripture actually uses these words. 1) This verb is only used twice in the NT. It's basic meaning is to atone for or expiate. In the passive voice, it means to be merciful. It is used in both of these senses in the NT. In Luke 18:13, the sinner prays for God to be merciful, while in Heb. 2:17, Jesus is compared to a faithful high priest who makes atonement for the sins of the people. 2) This noun refers to that which makes atonement. Again, it is only used twice in the NT. It is used in 1 John 2:2, where it is said that Christ is the means of atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world. it is also used in 1 John 4:10, where God's love is demonstrated by sending Christ to be the atonement for our sins. 3) This next noun is also only used twice in the NT. It is used in Rom. 3:25, where we are told that Christ is our atoning sacrifice through faith. It is also used in Rom. 9:5, where it refers to the mercy seat of the Ark. 4) The last can mean either 'be merciful' or 'God forbid'. Again, it is only found twice in the NT. It is used in the latter sense in Mt. 16:22. It is used in the former sense in Heb. 8:12. Now, what can we gather from these verses? a) The extent of the atonement is all men - 1 John 2:2. b) It is evidence of God's love - 1 John 4:10. c) It is applied when one believes - Rom. 3:25. From my perspective, Rom. 3 is a very important passage. It goes into quite a bit of detail, tying atonement and justification together and establishing that both take effect after one believes. Well, I have work to do, so I must depart now! It was good to chat with you my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||