Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89669 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! If you are going to quote me, quote me correctly. I said that I could produce verses which actually say what I am saying. Where are the verses which say that Christ only died for some? I can show you many that says He died for all. The only problem is the Calvinistic viewpoint will not allow that meaning so they are re-interpreted. Where are the verses which say that God wills some to be lost? I can show you where God says that He doesn't will any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But, the Calvinistic viewpoint will not allow that, so it is re-interpreted. Where are the verses which say that regeneration precedes faith? I can show you where Scripture says that we believe and then are saved. But...You get the picture. I have acknowledged that you have verses which you believe teach a particular thing, but they never quite actually say it. Why? I love you brother, but I am finally coming to see what so many have told me - that this debate is pointless. Even if I showed you a verse which said that God elected all men, you wouldn't believe it. :-( So, until such a time as anyone can produce a verse which actually states what Calvinists teach, I will continue to believe in a God that so loved the world, that He gave His only Son to atone for the sins of the world - a God who does not want anyone to perish, but calls all men to repentance. If that is outrageous, then so be it! To me, that is good news! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89698 | ||
Dear Tim You're right, please forgive me. That was stupid and utterly Calvinistic of me to look at what the words actually IMPLIED and respond to the implication instead of the statement itself. Put it this way Tim. I've tried and tried to get you to be honest with the text and CONTEXT, yet you want more than anything to hold on to your interpretations as absolute rule. But you don't give any solid explanations or definitive rebuttals of the reformed arguments. That's fine, I can't force you to see something you don't see. BUT, the Reformed view makes absolutely perfect sense to me and many others and I don't have to do anything more than keep the CONTEXT of Scripture in my heart and mind when attempting to understand it. I couldn't interpret the Bible and come to an Arminian view without being dishonest with myself. If there is sin in that, than so be it. I know in my heart that God has me seeking absolute truth so I have nothing to be afraid of when someone confronts my understanding of Scripture. In fact, I pray that He brings others into my life to help teach and correct me when I'm wrong. I pray that He always gives me a mind ready to learn and a heart willing to be taught. I see the Bible as a beautifully adorned landscape. On the surface, it boasts the most amazing array of wonders and majesty. Yet below the surface their lies even more--treasures of gold and diamonds and pearls. Sometimes you gotta dig to find the loot. In Christ, JIBBS PS Regarding the silly statement about God electing all men (which you obvious believe, in spite of reality) please read and ponder this: Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now tell me Tim: ARE ALL MEN ELECT? OHHHH...which reminds me..you wanted verses showing that Jesus only died for the elect...HERE ONE IS AGAIN: Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know MINE OWN, and MINE OWN know me, Joh 10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. Let me guess...you'll quote "we all like sheep have gone astray"...therefore, ALL are sheep, right? Ok, Tim, if you say so ol' buddy. If I'm getting too sarcastic, let me know. I promise you it's in good fun. No hard feelings. |
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3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Hank | 89703 | ||
Re your post #89696 to Tim, Jibby-Jee. Look it over, review it. Then please consider this: Most often the shortcomings and pitfalls we see in others and accuse them of are nothing more or less than mirrors of ourselves. It really doesn't matter in the perspective of eternity whether one calls himself a Calvinist or an Arminian, or whether he embraces neither in toto. It does, however, matter a great deal when he begins to think of his persuasion as being the only possible one that Scripture affords and that as a consequence all other views are flat wrong. The word for this position is bigotry. We are all of us, my young friend, learners and we never in this life reach the utopia at which we need learn no more because we at last know it all. The woods are filled with Calvinists who have become Arminians and with Aminians who have become Calvinists, so it is perfectly obvious that there are convincing reasons in both theological idiologies. There are others, I among them, who see some truth in Calvinism and some in Arminianism, but who at the same time see how an adverse effect an extreme devotion to either of these 'isms' -- or to any other 'ism' -- can obscure the real message of the Scriptures and distort the plain meaning of the word of God. It is entirely possible, with sacred text or secular, to demand of the text more than text can supply, to ask the text to say more than it does or less than it does, or to take so much of our baggage to the text, the cumbersome baggage of our ideas and conclusions, that renders us so handicapped that we take too little of the text's ideas and conclusions that it could give us if our minds were unfettered. In general, I believe it is fair and accurate to say that the more convinced we become that our position is the only right one possible, and that all variant views are flawed and in serious error, the more ability we lose to grow in the faith, the less ability we retain to allow Scripture to speak to us as it is meant to do, to reprove our ways and correct our errors, and the less enabled we become to bring others to taste of the living water of Christ Jesus. When I hear a Calvinist speak so positively and so surely and with such presumed knowledge of the intricate and minute details of such enormously complex concepts as God's election and predestination -- when I know that the Bible does not reveal these subjects with anything approaching the detailed knowledge about them that the Calvinist pretends to have -- when he does that, I turn him off, because I feel certain that he doesn't fully understand what he is talking about. When, on the other hand, I hear a staunch Arminian proclaim that man has absolute free will, or that the maintenance of man's salvation depends on man's maintenace of good works to keep it viable, I likewise become slightly deaf, because I believe that man's will is not entirely free, although God did not turn man into a puppet after the fall, and thus man can still choose to accept or reject God's offer of grace but that no one comes to Christ without the convicting work of the Holy Spirit; and that man's good works will no more keep him saved than they will save him initially. But back to the point of being too sure that we have the exclusive mastery of the truth. We study, we pray, we struggle to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We strive to keep the faith and to finish our course. But we should do so with humility and with godly fear, realizing that we see through our mirror darkly, we all have feet of clay, and none of us is pure and sinless enough to be justified in casting even that first stone against our neighbor. --Hank | ||||||
4 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | BradK | 89723 | ||
Hank, Your words are well spoken and hit at the heart of this matter. Having just concluded 4 weeks in our adult Sunday school class dealing with the foundations of the Calvinist/Arminianist positions, I see merit to both. Having said that, I do consider myself a Calvinist ( to the delight of some and chagrin of others). With that said, 500 years of Church History should be enough to tell us we have not and will not solve this dilemma. I've learned from both sides. I think Spurgeon- though an avowed Calvinist-said it well, "DO NOT IMAGINE for an instant that I pretend to be able thoroughly to elucidate the great mysteries of predestination. There are some men who claim to know all about the matter. They twist it round their fingers as easily as if it were an everyday thing; but depend upon it, he who thinks he knows all about this mystery, knows but very little. It is but the shallowness of his mind that permits him to see the bottom of his knowledge; he who dives deep, finds that there is in the lowest depth to which he can attain a deeper depth still. The fact is, that the great questions about man's responsibility, free-will, and predestination, have been fought over, and over, and over again, and have been answered in ten thousand different ways; and the result has been, that we know just as much about the matter as when we first began." Speaking The Truth In Love, BradK |
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5 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | EdB | 89724 | ||
Bradk Thank you!!!!!!!! The words quoted are truely the most intelligent I have seen written on the subject. I hope all that love to debate this subject reads them and learns from them. I pray this will stop this endless debate!! EdB |
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