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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89460 | ||
Greetings Mike! In light of your quote from Martin Luther, I would ask you the same question that I asked John awhile back. If man has no free will, on what basis did Adam and Eve choose to sin? If you really believe that man has no free will, then the following senerio must be true: 1) God makes Adam and Eve sin and then punishes them with death for sinning. 2) All of Adam and Eve's children are born with sin natures and cannot help but sin, and God punishes them with hell. 3) God chooses to save a few of them, and leaves the rest to their ordained fate. So, do you really believe that there is no free will in man at all? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89496 | ||
Tim My friend. :) Why don't you let us know what you think? I would say WHY Adam and Eve sinned is a mystery. They did not have sin natures, however they were not perfect either. They had both the ability to sin and the inclination to sin based upon their human nature. God, by His very nature, knew of and ordained sins to happen. It doesn't make him the author of ADAM'S (or anyone's) sins, contrary to Arminian tradition. Jesus Christ, the REDEEMER, is an ETERNAL being, which to me, says God had redemption purposed BEFORE Creation! Having such a purpose in His very identity and nature, how could sin NOT have entered into the world? Endless speculation about WHY Adam sinned is irrevelant. It has nothing to do with OUR fallen condition today in which we are literally SLAVES TO SIN. Tell me, Tim, what is it in us, if not our will, that is "Enslaved to sin"?? Please read Romans 6:5-23 In Christ, JIBBS |
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3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89547 | ||
Greetings Jibbs! The question of whether or not Adam and Eve freely choose to sin is directly relevant to our understanding of fallen man today. Your last post cited a quote which denied that man ever had any free will whatsoever. Thus, you will forever deny that man has or could have the ability to accept or reject salvation. The usual Calvinistic tactic when discussing free will is to simply say that fallen man is free to sin, but nothing else. However, Adam and Eve were not fallen. So, there can only be two possible options. Either God MADE them sin or they freely choose to sin. If the first is true, then there are serious problems with judgement. How could a holy God make us sin and then condemn us for sinning? If the latter is true, then there is no reason to believe that man has lost the ability to make a choice, since there isn't any Scripture which actually says that he has lost that ability. Now, we would both agree that fallen man, left to his own devices would not reach out to God. However, where I differ with Calvinism is that I serve a God who draws all to Him, and offers salvation to all, not just some. Because He draws and convicts them, they are enabled to respond. The only thing we really differ on is the extent of all these things. You believe that God makes some people respond to the Gospel even while they are dead in sin. I believe that God makes it possible for all me to respond to the Gospel even while they are dead in sin. You believe that God only wants some to be saved. I believe that God wants all to be saved. You believe that God only died for some, while I believe that Christ died for all. The main difference between the two views is that I can actually produce Scripture which says what I believe! ;-) Calvinists act as though it is just impossible that people could respond to the Gospel, but even Calvinists teach that people respond to the Gospel. The only difference is one of degrees. If God can draw some, why can't He draw all? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Mickodemus | 89589 | ||
Ohh brother Tim you make me chuckle, you say: "The main difference between the two views is that I can actually produce Scripture which says what I believe! ;-)" We have been pointing scripture out to you again and again but in your ignorance ;) you don't see. How 'bout another verse: Acts15:7-11 ...Peter rose up and said to them, Men, brothers, you recognize that from ancient days God chose among us that through my mouth the nations should hear the Word of the gospel, and believe. Act 15:8 And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit even as to us. Act 15:9 And He put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:10 Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, according to which manner they also believed. Again, we see that Peter says that the nations shall "hear" the word of the Gospel first and then believe. What did Christ say before in John 5:24-25? "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life." Or John 8:43-47 "Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God." WAIT A MINUTE.... NOT OF GOD???? You must have ears given you by the Father to be "One of His", or to understand/believe/have faith. Christ DID offer salvation to the Pharacees and Saducees but did they respond/have faith? No....Because they did not have ears to hear GIVEN BY THE FATHER or were not ONE OF HIS As Christ says in His prayer at the garden in John 17:9; "I pray for them; I am not praying for the world (they are not mine) but for those whom thou hast given me, because they belong to thee. *parentheses added by me Here we see that example of Christ did not die for everyone but to everyone in the world THAT WAS/IS HIS. It is impossible for people to respond to the Gospel by faith unless you are one of HIS! Because when you respond you have the Goodness/righteousness (sanctification) given you by the Father and without it we are born to die in sin as children of the Devil. "Enter by the narrow gate. The gate is wide that leads to perdition, there is plenty of room on the road, and many go that way; but the gate that leads to life is small and the road is narrow, and those who find it are few." (because only a few are led by the Shepherd) Sheep and Goats....Sheep and Goats Some made as sheep, some made as goats. In Christ, Mike |
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5 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 89637 | ||
Greetings Mike! I'm glad you got a chuckle my friend! Everyone deserves a little levity each day! ;-) Allow me to demonstrate my point though. Most of the points being made on these threads are inferences from Scripture, not catagorical statements of Scripture. For instance, my involvement in this particular thread began in response to the following statement by JibbyJee: "There is nothing there that suggests he did/didn't die for all men. But in light of all of Scripture, particularly John 6:35-45, it becomes clear that He died TO SAVE and not to FAIL TO SAVE by losing some." I then preceded to list some of the Scriptures that specifically state that Christ died for all men. In response, I have been told this isn't so, but no Scripture has been produced which specifically says that Christ did not die for all men. Then, in another thread, it was specifically stated that 'regeneration precedes faith'. I asked for the Scripture references which make that statement. None were provided. However, I did provide statements from Scripture which specifically list faith as the condition for the various aspects of salvation. Now, the debate has changed once again to the relationship between 'hearing' and 'faith'. I don't know how this point was raised, since I never claimed that 'faith' preceded 'hearing'. We agree on the timing here. Rom. 10:17 specifically says that faith comes by hearing. However, you seem to be suggesting that there are a group of people who cannot nor will they ever be able to hear God's words. John 8:43 says of the Jewish leaders that they literally 'have not be enabled to hear' - present tense. Nothing in the passage ever says that this will always be the case. I would argue that Christ is refering here to the same topic as Rom. 11 - i.e. that the Jews were temporarily hardened that the gospel might go out to the Gentiles as well. But, those in Rom. 11 who were hardened are also said to be able to be grafted in again. So, once again, we have an inference from a passage, but not a clear statement. That is why I made the remark that I did. If someone asks me, why do you believe that Christ died for 'all', I can respond with statements from Scripture which specifically say that Christ died for all. Where are the statements of Scripture that: 1) God did not die for all. 2) God only died for some. 3) God only wills some to be saved. 4) God will only give some people the ability to respond to the gospel. Yes, you can point to Scripture which you believe infers these things, but not to one Scripture which actually says these things. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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