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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 87799 | ||
Hello again Tim! Congrats on your ordination in the Church of the Nazarene. The Church of the Nazarene was my first denomination after being saved in 1997. My pastor was Dr. Les Parrott in Puyallup Washington. He's been all over the U.S. so I'm sure you'll hear about his legacy in the denomination if you haven't already. (I think he also was the first President of Olivet University but I'm not certain on that.) Anyway, he was a great pastor and his son Les Jr. and his wife have a very successful worldwide family ministry that is based here in the Northwest. Regarding your post: To start, Tim, I need to say something in love to you. I think as Christians are obligated to be certain that we are not sacrificing truth for the sake of "simplicity". I understand your desire to read what the text "simply" says, but that doesn't always guarantee that we understand the full implications of our interpretation. Sometimes the Bible is not expressly clear and requires such implicity to be explained by more explicit verses. I do believe it is dangerous to make the verses more complex than need be, but at the same time, it is equally dangerous to define truth by how "simple" it is to understand. With that said, I hope we can come to some agreements that resolve what may seem like contradictions in the Word. ((The subject is 'no one'. The main clause is 'No one can come to me'. The next clause explains how anyone can come, only if God draws. The last clause says, 'and I will raise him up at the last day.' Who is the 'he'? The one who comes.)) Respectfully, I don't understand how you can divorce the latter half of verse 44 from the first half. Jesus is clearly saying the no one CAN come (inability) without being drawn. That clearly establishes the "drawing" as the force behind the coming. Jesus identifies his role in relation to verse 40 in the words "and I will raise him up on the last day." He directly links the drawing to the coming so that the two are inseparable. Think about it for a second. What does verse 44 say about the one who doesn't come? Are they drawn? I believe the goal of the "drawing" is salvation--the Father giving to the Son. Are you saying He draws all but that drawing fails to save some?? Isn't this basically saying the God makes salvation possible but doesn't actually save anyone? In Christ, JibbyJee |
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2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87821 | ||
Greetings JibbyJee! Thanks for the info. I'll have to check into your former pastor. :-) Concerning John 6:44, I'm not advocating divorcing the second clause, but understanding it's role in the sentence. The first clause is the main clause, so the 3rd clause describes the result of coming, not the drawing. So, yes, I am saying that while all are drawn, not all come. We would agree that no one can come without being drawn first. Depravity makes it so that can't come to Christ, but God's grace draws us. The Nazarenes call this prevenient grace. Concerning simplicity, I simply (;-)) meant to say that there is no contradiction between 6:44 and 12:32, so there is no need to postulate a big theory about why 'all' doesn't really mean 'all'. :-) Well, I have to get ready for work! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 87909 | ||
Hi Tim! It must be about 4pm your time right now and I am on my lunch hour. I would be complaining that you're almost off work right now until I found out your 9-5 is on the opposite end of the clock. Ouch!! The night shift can be a mean one! According to your interpretation of John 6, the grace of God draws all men. If we are saved by grace, then I assume you also believe grace must also fail to save, unless you believe everyone will be saved. If I understand the implications of your interpretation, you are saying God applies the same grace to the Apostle Paul and Hitler alike. Under your view, God doesn't do anything for those who come to believe on Him that He doesn't also do for the perishing. Therefore, God in and of Himself, plays NO active role in the salvation of anyone specifically( compare Isa. 63:5). The will of man is the ultimate deciding factor in salvation (compare Rom. 9:16; John 1:13). Your understanding is that God desires all people everywhere to be saved but that His will is impotent when dealing with "autonomous" free will decisions of men. I don't want to misrepresent you here. It's hard to be super-accurate given the time and space constraints. If this is not an accurate portrait of your beliefs, please clarify so I can better understand your position and clearly discuss them with you. As for the simplicity of "all" issue, tell me what you think of this: Matt. 4:8--Is there really a mountain where ALL the literal world can be seen? Is this even possible? John 1:29--Does Jesus literally take the sin of the ALL the world upon Himself? I think you would agree that the reason Jesus took sin upon Himself was to bear the punishment for it in our place. If He took a sin to the cross, then He took the wrath of God for it. His atoning work is completed. With that said, how, then, does God justly punish anyone? If all sins have been paid for, then what is the basis for eternal punishment? In Christ, JibbyJee |
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4 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87936 | ||
Greetings Jibby-Jee! Night shift can be a bear! :-) I just posted to Joe about some of these issues. I really don't understand the obession with the idea that if someone doesn't accept the offer of salvation that He has somehow failed. :-( What about all those who did receive the gift? What about the demonstration of His love in dying for all? What is the basis for eternal punishment? Rejection of such a gift as Christ has freely offered would be sufficient grounds in my mind! We have two choices before us. We either have a God who could save all, but chooses not to save all. Or, we have a God who offers salvation to all, but not everyone accepts. The end result is the same, not everyone is saved. The difference is that under my understanding, everyone could be. Under your understanding, everyone could not be. Now, I can point to many verses which specifically say that God does want all to be saved, and that Christ did die for all. Where is a single verse which contradicts my contention? Where is a verse which says that Christ did not die for all, or that He only died for some? This discussion has gone on and on with people telling me why 'all' can't really mean 'all, but no one has produced this single verse as of yet. Surely such an important and crucial doctrine as this would be clearly stated somewhere! :-) The rule of thumb that I have always taught people about Bible study is that the more one has to 'explain' why a verse doesn't really mean what it appears to say then the more likely that view is wrong. Concerning His will, why must He be impotent? If God allows man a choice, the carrying out of the choice is part of His will. We are commanded in Scripture to either accept or reject the gift of salvation. Our choice does not make God impotent! Well, it's time to head out for that night shift again! :-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 88006 | ||
Tim, happy weekend greetings! Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to chat with me. I do appreciate it! I'm going to try to answer your post one paragraph at a time. Not sure if I'll finish, though. 1. This goes back to the Christian belief that God saves (Isaiah 63:5). The supposition that God intends to save all yet manages to lose some cannot be defined by any other word but failure. The very definition of failure is the inability to accomplish that which you set out to do. So the question really is: Did Jesus intend to save every man on Earth or not? 2. While I think you have given what you sincerely believe to be the definitive answer to my question, please allow me to give reasons why I disagree with your conclusions. Bear with me while I explain: It's my belief that all men everywhere are sinners and therefore under condemnation whether they hear the Gospel or not (John 3:18,36; Rom. 3:10-11; Eph. 2:3). Because of this natural corruption of man (1 Cor. 2:14), we cannot save ourselves (or even desire to) nor is God under any obligation to redeem any of us. This means none of us can demand salvation from Him. Furthermore, if God only decided to save 5 people on Earth and let the rest go on to Hell (where apart from grace, their desires will take them) He is still perfectly just. Do you see my point? If God only made atonement for those He intended to save, there is nothing unjust at all about that. So the question is not "How can God not try and save so-and-so?" but rather "Why does God save ANYONE?". So again, my friend, I ask you to seriously consider the scope of the atonement in relation the the nature of God's wrath. If Jesus paid for all the sins of every man, on what basis is anyone judged??? I know it may sound trivial, but the answer is the key, in my opinion, to better understanding Jesus' redeeming purpose on Earth. 3. In this paragraph you've given an either/or proposition which I think can be reduced to a simpler argument: Either God saves without the assistance of man or God needs man's cooperation in order to save them. My first question here is "do you or do you not believe God COULD save all?" I certainly believe He could if He chose to, but the Bible reveals not only that He doesn't do so, but also the reasons why (Romans 9:21-24). The central aspect I've gathered from this paragraph is the value you've assigned to human choice. I absolutely agree with you that we must choose to be saved, but where we disagree is on how that choice comes to fruition. The Bible says no one seeks God (as natural men)(Rom. 3:10-11) and that we are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). Were you saved by something you did or by something God did? Here's something that humbled me a great deal (after many sleepless nights!!) when I was first compelled to consider these things: Imagine for a moment yourself standing next to an unbeliever before the throne of God. What differentiates the two of you? How did you gain the attire in which your dressed? Were you smarter than the person next to you? Were you more spiritually inclined? What was in you that caused you to believe that wasn't in the wretched sinner at your side? Please allow me to humbly let you know how difficult these things are to consider honestly. I experienced it for myself. But I believe the truth put things into perspective for me. I (we) are rotten sinners who don't deserve Christ any more than the next guy. Our belief doesn't make us righteous. Christ and Christ alone made us righteous when He bore all our inequities on the Cross. Our coming to Him in belief is the proof of that victory over the ghastly grips of sin upon us. You've said that under my understanding, everyone COULD not be saved. Actually, I believe everyone WILL not be saved. There's a significant difference. Not that everyone COULDN'T be, but rather that God has chosen not to according to His own will and purpose (Eph 1:4). But I don't limit God. I don't know who He will save. So I concentrate on my own walk with Jesus so that I cause no one to stumble, and this for the sake of the elect. 4. First, we could debate the usage of verses like 1 Tim. 2:4 or 2 Pet. 3:9 as they are used in their own context to show that the verses are talking about all Christ died for (the believing ones). Here are some verses that speak of a particular redemption that you asked for. Please read them: Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45; Eze. 34:10-11; John 10:11; John 10:15 Now as far as a verse that specifically uses the exact phrase you demand, you're right is saying it doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean the doctrine is not implied by the whole text of Scripture. For example, the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible. Do you believe in the Trinity? Why? Coram Deo, Jibbs |
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6 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 88015 | ||
Greetings JibbyJee! I agree with everything you say my friend until you get to the part about Christ not dying for all! ;-) You asked: " Now as far as a verse that specifically uses the exact phrase you demand, you're right is saying it doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean the doctrine is not implied by the whole text of Scripture. For example, the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible. Do you believe in the Trinity? Why?" The word 'Trinity' is a label identifying a particular belief. The belief is that there is only One God, but three distinct Person who are that one God. There are plenty of verses which specifically say that there is only one God. There are also plenty of verses which say that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God. That is why I believe in the Trinity. So, the comparison doesn't work. There isn't any verse which says that Christ did not die for all men, but there are plenty of verses which say that He did. So, I'll stand on them my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Truthfinder | 88022 | ||
Hi Tim, Yes, Tim I agree if Christ died for Manasseh (guilty of shedding innocent blood in great quantity) which he did, (2Ki 21:10-16) then he did indeed die for "all". I agree with you on your arguement here. But show me please a verse that says that God's active force or holy spirit is specifically Jesus. I thought Jesus' second coming was much later than pennecost of 33 C.E. John 14:26, "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU. Honestly, I have never read/argued the point of the Holy Spirit being Jesus as God, but I believe I have a sound basis for believing the way I do, and certainly agree that any time and every time Almighty God Jehovah accomplishes/ed something, his active force had to have been involved. Sincerly. Truthfinder |
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8 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 88023 | ||
Greetings Truthfinder! Thanks for the kudo's on the other thread! :-) As you are probably well aware, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus, nor do I believe that the Holy Spirit is simply God's active force. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinty, and very God. As to the reasons why, I have posted on this topic many times before. Since I am very pressed for time, I would ask that you use the search feature my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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