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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87646 | ||
Greetings JibbyJee! First of all, welcome to forum! Secondly, at the risk of opening another long debate on this topic, I would offer the following verses in response to your statement: "There is not real evidence in Scripture to suggest that Jesus died to save everyone." ************************************* 1) Concerning the extent of the atonement: a) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men?s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. " b) John 3:16-17 - "??For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." c) John 12:32 - "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.? d) John 6:33 and 51 - "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world .? ..."I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.? e) Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." f) 1 John 4:14 - "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." g) 1 Timothy 2:6 - "who gave himself as a ransom for all men?the testimony given in its proper time." h) 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 2) Concerning the will of Christ to save all: a) 1 Timothy 2:4 - "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." b) 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." c) Romans 11:32 - " For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." ************************************* Now, I realize that many don't believe that 'all' in these passages really means 'all', but I'm just a simple man! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Joseph3 | 87747 | ||
PART 1--Kind greetings, Tim: --Please forgive me for jumping into this discussion at this time! Please see my comments in between the verses you provided. “1) Concerning the extent of the atonement:” ”a) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men?s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. "” -- Tim, this verse is stating that God is reconciling the world to Himself, simply put. God is bringing reconciliation to the world and this verse is speaking to us as believers to go out and preach reconciliation. I guess I am not sure how this verse proves that Christ dies for every single individual person. If we take this verse to say He did die for each individual person, then God did not hold the sins of Stalin and Hitler against them, or any other human who dies denying God, so did they get off scot-free when they died? If God did hold their sins against them (which, unless they repented and believed Christ, He did), then we have a situation where God changed His mind, which flies in the face of Scripture passages that say otherwise(Mal. 3:6; Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9). ”b) John 3:16-17 - "??For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."” --Again, I would not try and argue anything other than what this verse means. God does love the world, the world of all people, not just the Jews. We have to remember who Jesus was talking to here, Nicodemus, a Pharisee. He was quizzing Jesus about His works and the Kingdom. In those days salvation was only for the Jews and no one else. Well, Jesus is blowing that box apart and telling Nicodemus that salvation has come to all the world, to all peoples! Praise God! ”c) John 12:32 - "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.?” --First off, if every single individual is drawn, then Christ must raise them on the last day, referring to salvation(John 6:44). We know this is not true because Christ teaches that there is a Hell in which unbelievers will spend eternity. Secondly, the term used “will” is very strong, meaning that when Christ says He “will” do something, it does happen, no questions asked, He is God after all! So, in light of this, to say that Christ does draw every single individual person, that presents problems. Thirdly, we know that daily there are individuals who die in their sins never hearing the Gospel of Christ. Does Christ draw those individual people? ”d) John 6:33 and 51 - "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world .? ..."I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.?” --God does give life, in a broad sense to the world, I would not argue with that. But, even in this verse it says that one must eat of the Bread, His flesh, in order to have the life, and obviously not every single individual person has partaken of the flesh of Christ, right? Plus, this verse says that if you eat of His flesh, you have eternal life right now! ”e) Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."” --Again, God is showing grace to man through His grace in the Gospel of Christ. In a sense, it has appeared to all men through the preaching of the Word to all tribes, tongues and nations. This is the Great Commission! ”f) 1 John 4:14 - "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."” --Agreed, Christ is the Savior of the world, no argument here! Whether people like it or not, Christ is the only true Messiah in this fallen world, the only One than can and will save His people from their sins and the wrath to come(1 Thess. 1:10; Rom. 2:5). Continued in next post… |
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3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87765 | ||
Greetings Joseph3! No problem my friend! You are welcome to respond at any time. My only concern is that I don't want to get another long debate started on this topic, since it has been discussed many times before. However, I will respond to your points. In general though, I think that you are forcing an interpretation upon these verses based upon theological assumptions that are not supported by the text themselves - i.e. 'all' can't mean 'all'; therefore, 'all' must mean 'some'. So, allow me to touch upon each example. a) 2 Cor. 5:19: You wrote: "God is bringing reconciliation to the world and this verse is speaking to us as believers to go out and preach reconciliation." However, the verse doesn't say that God is bringing 'reconcilation to the world'. This construction would make 'reconcilation' the object of the sentence. It could then be a thing which is simply brought and not mention anything at all about who the reconcilation is for. But, what does the verse actually say: "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men?s sins against them...." Here, the verbal is 'reconciling' and the object is world. So, what God was doing, He did to the world. It is only a theological assumption which demands that 'world' here must mean believers or elect. Notice also that the 'reconcilation', while accomplished on God's part, still must be received by the world. Verse 20 implores people to 'be reconciled to God'. This is an imperative which must be acted upon. Further, how does Paul use the word 'world'? How about Rom. 5:12? Does 'world' there mean only the elect? b) John 3:16-17: I began reading when I was about 5 years old. Never in all the years I have been reading would I have ever read 'to save the world' and take it to mean 'to save some of the world'! :-) Again, my friend, this is a reading mandated by a theological assumption, not the text. I have done a lengthy study on the meanings of the word 'world' before. If you would like to read it, simply search for 'Morant61' and 'world'. c) John 6:44 and 12:32: This one is actually quite simple. The subject of 6:44 is 'no one'. The verse says that 'no one' is able to come unles the Father draws him. The verse does not say that all who are drawn will come. It only says that all who come must be drawn. This is where John 12:32 fits in - no one could come if not for the fact that Christ draws all to Him. Now, back to 6:44! Those who come, not those who are drawn, will be raised. So, there is no conflict between these two verses and no need to assume that 'all men' in 12:32 must really only mean 'some men'. d) John 6:33 and 51: Nothing said here conflicts with my view at all. The atonement is an objective reality on the part of God which must be accepted or received on our part. So, yes, life is offered to all, but only those who eat of this bread will live. e) Titus 2:11: If this is what this verse means, then you do believe that every individual has heard, right? f) 1 John 4:14 - Same problem as earlier, this verse does not say 'only Savior in this world'. It says, 'the Savior of the world'. I'll finish with your second part my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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