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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 87684 | ||
Tim Thanks, it's good to be here. I've enjoyed this forum immensely so far. Regarding the majority of the proof-texts that you gave in support of an indefinite/universal atonement: I'm not sure how any of these verses support your view. Could you please explain them to me as you understand them? Regarding the WILL TO SAVE ALL verses you listed: again, I don't see how you can come to those conclusions in light of their own context, let alone the entirety of Scripture. Surely you've debated this issue many times here so if you choose not to I totally understand. I will leave you with this though. John 6:35-45 is what I believe to be the clearest, most explicit teaching about the particular extent of the atonement. Couple that with the intercessory prayer of Jesus in John 17 and the Book of Hebrews and you have a very formidible task in disproving that the precious, cleansing blood of Christ was ineffective on anyone. Ultimately, that is what universal atonement advocates are forced to believe. Sincerely in Christ, JibbyJee |
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2 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87710 | ||
Greetings JibbyJee! It would be a tall order right now to go through everyone of the verses! :-) Especially since I am currently in the process of moving! Let it suffice for now to simply say that Scripture says that Christ 'died for all' and wants 'all men to be saved'. So, I take that at face value. For a narrow discussion, let's touch upon John 6:35-45. John 6:44 says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." The same word is also used in John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." So, does Christ draw all men or not? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 87753 | ||
Greetings Tim! Where you moving to/from? It's a great time to take advantage of interest rates and upgrade to a bigger home or refinance your mortgage, that's for sure. Lots of people selling their homes these days. My wife and I are considering doing just that as well. Anyway, Joseph3 gave some very solid arguments to each one of the verses you listed, something I didn't have time to do myself. But I completely agree with him. His posts are almost verbatim what I would have written. So now you know where I stand. You asked the question "does Christ draw all men or not?". You also listed John 12:32 and John 6:44. From John 6:44 we see a key distinction that is omitted from John 12:32. "AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY". So the question "does Christ draw all men or not?" by nature begs the question "Are all men raised at the last day?" You could say that all men will be raised up for judgment on the Last Day, and I would agree with you. But I deny that it fits this passage of Scripture. Directly in the context of John 6 in verse 40 Jesus clearly ties being "raised up" with being given eternal life. So that rules out unbelievers from being "raised up" as spoken of here. It's clearly speaking of salvation and to that I'm certain you would agree. So I think both questions are answered. Jesus draws all men to Himself in the sense that He is both Judge and Savior. No man escapes His Sovereign authority. Futhermore, if we continue to the logical conclusion of tying John 6:44 to John 12:32, then in order to remain consistent, we are forced to say that all men will be raised up to eternal life on the Last Day (John 6:40). In short, we are forced to be Universalists. IF John 12:32 and John 6:44 mean the same thing, then everyone will be saved and no one will go to Hell. I hope that explains why I don't believe the two verses are speaking of the same thing. John 6 is speaking directly of the powerful Sovereignty and Grace of God in Salvation. To me, it's the greatest passage of Scripture in the Bible (if there could be such a thing!)... Sincerely in Christ, JibbyJee |
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4 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | Morant61 | 87768 | ||
Greetings JibbyJee! I'm moving from Evansville, IN to Evansville, IN! :-) I'm not moving far, just to a cheaper place. God has really been opening doors. I have been in the process of transfering my ordination from the United Brethren in Christ to the Church of the Nazarene. As a result, our local congregation has offered us an associcate pastor position. It is mostly a volunteer position right now, but my wife and I are conviced that this is where God wants us. I tried to respond to most of Joseph3's points, but I am in a bit of a rush. Allow me to make one quick point concerning John 6:44. Here is the text: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." The subject is 'no one'. The main clause is 'No one can come to me'. The next clause explains how anyone can come, only if God draws. The last clause says, 'and I will raise him up at the last day.' Who is the 'he'? The one who comes. So, I don't believe that this verse says that all who are drawn will come. It says that all who come must be drawn first, then those who come will be raised. In fact, the verbal 'he who comes' is used four times in this passage. 'He who is drawn' is never the subject of a single verse, and the verb only occurs in 6:44. Again, my problem with this approach is that it makes every word mean something different in every passage, simply because of a theological perspective. It's too complex! ;-) Sometimes 'all' means 'all', sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes 'drag' means to draw irresistably, but sometimes it doesn't. To me, the simplest way is that 12:32 teachs exactly what it says - that all men are drawn by Christ. Then, 6:44 tells us that no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn. But, none of these verses say that everyone who is drawn will come. I have to run! I appreciate you dialogue my friend and I hope to get to know you better in the future. When I have time! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 87799 | ||
Hello again Tim! Congrats on your ordination in the Church of the Nazarene. The Church of the Nazarene was my first denomination after being saved in 1997. My pastor was Dr. Les Parrott in Puyallup Washington. He's been all over the U.S. so I'm sure you'll hear about his legacy in the denomination if you haven't already. (I think he also was the first President of Olivet University but I'm not certain on that.) Anyway, he was a great pastor and his son Les Jr. and his wife have a very successful worldwide family ministry that is based here in the Northwest. Regarding your post: To start, Tim, I need to say something in love to you. I think as Christians are obligated to be certain that we are not sacrificing truth for the sake of "simplicity". I understand your desire to read what the text "simply" says, but that doesn't always guarantee that we understand the full implications of our interpretation. Sometimes the Bible is not expressly clear and requires such implicity to be explained by more explicit verses. I do believe it is dangerous to make the verses more complex than need be, but at the same time, it is equally dangerous to define truth by how "simple" it is to understand. With that said, I hope we can come to some agreements that resolve what may seem like contradictions in the Word. ((The subject is 'no one'. The main clause is 'No one can come to me'. The next clause explains how anyone can come, only if God draws. The last clause says, 'and I will raise him up at the last day.' Who is the 'he'? The one who comes.)) Respectfully, I don't understand how you can divorce the latter half of verse 44 from the first half. Jesus is clearly saying the no one CAN come (inability) without being drawn. That clearly establishes the "drawing" as the force behind the coming. Jesus identifies his role in relation to verse 40 in the words "and I will raise him up on the last day." He directly links the drawing to the coming so that the two are inseparable. Think about it for a second. What does verse 44 say about the one who doesn't come? Are they drawn? I believe the goal of the "drawing" is salvation--the Father giving to the Son. Are you saying He draws all but that drawing fails to save some?? Isn't this basically saying the God makes salvation possible but doesn't actually save anyone? In Christ, JibbyJee |
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6 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | BradK | 87800 | ||
Dear Jibby Jee, Welcome to the Forum! A fellow Northwesterner and Washingtonian to boot? Check my user profile and give me an e-mail, my friend. Best regards, BradK |
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7 | THE CROSS | John 3:16 | JibbyJee | 89955 | ||
Hi Brad! I emailed you a few weeks ago but never got a response. (I almost forgot I even sent it!) Shame on me! But I was wondering if you got it or if maybe I mistook your email for junkmail and deleted it. I hope not. In Christ, JIBBS |
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