Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38411 | ||
Dear Tim, You know as well as I, that the reformed apologists can answer any and all challenges the arminians put forth. You, in turn will either agree or disagree. I would be happy to provide my exegesis to the aforementioned verses, if that is what you truly desire. But first tell me how you would answer an unbeliever (from scripture , please!) as to those questions I posed to you at the end of my last post. I know you would agree, that Human Reason finds it's place in the service of the Word. Not the other way around. God Bless You Tim, John |
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2 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38437 | ||
Greetings John! Not to be rude, but what's the point! :-) You think your view is Scriptural and I think mine is as well. You are familiar with what I will say, just as I am familiar with what you will say. I would say that God desires all to be saved, while you would say that 'all' doesn't really mean all. I would say that God died for the sins of the world, while you would say that 'world' doesn't really mean world. I would say that Christ draws all men to Him, but you would say He only draws the elect. I would say that the offer of salvation is extended to whosoever will, while you would say only the elect can will. :-) We could go on and on. I've reached the point where I'm really only interested in real questions about specific passages, not rehashing the same old points over and over. And, I think most on the forum are tired of the whole topic! I don't think that it should be barred from discussion, but I do think that rehashing the same old points over and over is not accomplishing anything. I've already posted many times on most of these topics, including an indepth exgesis of Rom. 9. Well, I just got home from work and it's time for some sleep! Talk with you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38516 | ||
Dear Tim, Your reponse implies that both you and I are intractable. Two guys that have their minds made up and that's that. I admit to being a stubborn person, however I am no match for the Holy Spirit! I've always been a person with strongly held convictions and have been skeptical (to put it mildly) about views in opposition to my own. That is, in part, why I hold to God's Soverign Grace vs Free Will. I was raised Roman Catholic; Abandoned catholisim at the age of 12. Lived for the devil til I was 30; Became a Diest and created a god as I understood him. At the age of 35 a friend of my father's presented the Gospel to me one sunny day beside a lake. I was impressed with his knowledge of the Bible, but unimpressed with his claim concerning Christ. I enjoyed the conversation but felt no compulsion to place myself under the authority of organized religion. That same afternoon, in the privacy of my bedroom, I asked Jesus to be my saviour! For years afterward, I felt that I had made a decision (or choice, if you prefer) to accept Christ as my Lord. I just was'nt to clear on how I had arrived at it. How did such a radical change in my thinking take place? I don't recall having weighed the arguements, or evaluated the benefits. Faith just seemed to have happend (Of course, now I know "faith comes from hearing the word of Christ"). Halleluia! Jesus is Lord!!! I could'nt wait to tell the Gospel to everyone. Family, friends and strangers alike. I was on fire for Jesus, I was filled with joy just anticipating their happy reception of the Good News. You've probablly been there and done that yourself. I was flabbergasted by their pitying looks and their warnings about my "reigious notions". It reminds me of Christian's reception by his family and frinds in "The Pilgrim's Progress". At any rate I was dumbfounded. Why me, when so many others deseved this blessing far more than I did? In fact most Christians I know believe that Christ just overwhelmed them. They give no credit to themselves. Tim, I bet (that is if, I was a betting man) that you feel exactly the same way. Don't you? I know that personal testimony and annecdotal evidence is not definitive proof. It is subjective and fallible. We have worn a hole in our mousepads copying and pasting scripture to one another. But rememember the Samaritan women at the well? What did she do (God bless her heart)? John 4:39 From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, "He told me all the things that I have done." If you do not wish to pursue our dicussion to the end, I would not hold it against you. But I would be disappointed. I presented you with a pair of questions that at one time I could not answer scriptualy (at least not from an arminian perspective). That does not mean that you can't answer them. Does it? God Bless Tim, Your Brother John |
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4 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38593 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for sharing some of your testimony with me. Even if we never see some issues the same, we are still brothers in Christ. :-) Now, on to the questions from your previous post! You wrote: "As you can see the scriptures give no hope to the the one who has never heard the Gospel. Of what benefit is free will to one whose only desire is evil continually? If God had dedesired the salvation of all men, why have_ all men_ not had the opportunity to be saved? If arminians cannot offer scriptual answers to questions such as these, they show the bankruptcy of "Free will choice in salvation"." The second question is based on an assumption. The assumption is made that not all men have had an opportunity, but Scripture never says that all men have not had an opportunity. Even Rom. 3, which you quoted from, says of the Word which brings faith in v. 18, "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: ‘‘Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."" Further, we have a clear statement in Scripture that God does desire all to come to repentance and that He desires to have mercy on all. The first question hinges on a Calvinistic understanding of Total Depravity. Arminians believe in Total Depravity, we just don't make the jump that 'dead' in sin means unable to respond. For instance, you quoted Rom. 3:10, and from that you make the assumption that people are unable to seek the Lord. However, both the Old and New Testaments speak of people seeking the Lord. Consider the following: Rom. 3:10 is quoting from Ps. 14:2. The word translated 'seek' is 'darash'. It is used in the sense of seeking in prayer, inquiring, or holding responsible. It is used 164 times in the Old Testament. The following are just some examples of people who did 'darash' the Lord. a) Gen. 25:22 - "And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD." b) Ex. 18:15 - "And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:" d) 2 Chron. 15:12 - "And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;" e) 2 Chron. 17:3 - "And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim; 4But sought to the LORD God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel." f) 2 Chron. 22:9 - "And he sought Ahaziah: and they caught him, (for he was hid in Samaria,) and brought him to Jehu: and when they had slain him, they buried him: Because, said they, he is the son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart. So the house of Ahaziah had no power to keep still the kingdom." g) 2 Chron. 26:5 - "And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper." h) Psalm 24:6 - "This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah." i) Psalm 77:2 - "In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted." We could go on, but these should suffice. So, it is obvious from the verses listed here that people do indeed and can seek God. So, what was Ps. 14:2 saying? It was a prayer. In the prayers of the Psalms, people speak from their feelings and their experiences. In David’s case, he felt that he was living in a generation of people who did not seek God. But, this verse cannot be used for a proof text that it is impossible for people to seek God. What about Rom. 3:10? Paul is simply establishing that all men are sinful. In Rom. 1, he establishes that pagans are sinful. In Rom. 2, he establishes that Jews are sinful, even though they have the Law. In Rom. 3, he concludes that all men are sinful; therefore, obedience to the Law will not save us - we must have faith in Christ. But, even Paul speaks of all men seeking God in Acts 17:27, "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." And James says in Acts 15:17, "that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’" So, to answer your first question, total depravity does not mean that men are incapable of seeking God. I would describe it this way: 1) God seeks us first! 2) He sends His Spirit to convict and to draw all men. 3) Thus, all have the opportunity and the means to come to Him, if they accept the gift of salvation. I’m sure you are familiar with the verses I would use on each of these points! Well, this is running long! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38724 | ||
Tim, I may have to aswer you one question at a time, because of the demands on my time. 1). "The first question hinges on a Calvinistic understanding of Total Depravity. Arminians believe in Total Depravity, we just don't make the jump that 'dead' in sin means unable to respond. Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Rom 8:6,7 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so". Rom 5:12 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned". There are many other verses that support the total inability of man to will that which is pleasing to God. You will also note the the verses I chose are didactic. The meaning does not need to be deduced. they are clear in themselves. I say this in love: Who is the one doing the leaping? May Our Discourse Bring Praise to Our King. Your Brother John |
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6 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38732 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the response! I understand about the time pressures! :-) You concluded from your quotes: "There are many other verses that support the total inability of man to will that which is pleasing to God. You will also note the the verses I chose are didactic. The meaning does not need to be deduced. they are clear in themselves." Yet, not one of the verses you quoted said that man is unable to will that which is pleasing to God! They simply state that we are spiritually dead! However, spiritually dead doesn't mean unable to hear God or respond to Him. For instance, Norman Geisler in his book, "Chosen But Free: A Balanced Vew of Divine Election" makes the following point: "Second, even though they are spritually 'dead,' th unsaved persons can perceive the truth of God. In Romans, Paul declares emphatically that God's truth is 'clearly seen' by them so that they are 'without ecuse' (1:2). Adam and Eve were spiritually 'dead' after they at the forbidden fruit. Yt hey could hear the voice of God and rsponded to Him (Gen. 3:10). And this was not merely a hearing of the tangible sounds. Their reaction reveals that the understood the meaning of the words." (p. 59). These words are even coming from a Calvinist! I showed you numerous verses where people sought God, so how is it a leap to say that people can respond to God's gracious offer of salvation? In fact, Rom. 5:17b even says that those who "...receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." We agree that sin is universal (extending to all men) and extensive (effecting every part of man), but Scripture doesn't teach that sin is intensive (totally destroying the image of God in man). Man still has a conscience. Man still understands the difference between right and wrong. Man still feels guilt. Man sometimes does what is right. Man isn't as evil as he possibly could be, else everyone would be a Hitler. Well, I've got to go! I'll chat with you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38768 | ||
Dear Tim, Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Rom 8:6,7 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so" If you are not persuaded by these verses, I am at a loss to know what verses will persuade you. Being a good calvinist, I am absolutely certain that God has predestined all things (eph 3:11). In the plan of God all things work together for the good of the believer (RO 8:28). He not only has preordained the good works that His children perform, but even the evil men do and the evil the devil does are part of His plan. At the same time He is not the author of sin or does He force men to do His will. Christians fulfill good works because of their love of Christ. Wicked men and Satan fulfill his plan because they hate Him.(Acts 4:26,27). I am comforted by my belief that if God wants to turn you into calvinist He will.(Im smiling) All I have said has been in happy christian fellowship. I have grown fond of you. I am sure that if we were neighbors we would spend many enjoyable hours discussing the wonders of our God. PS. If brother Giesler is a REAL calvinist, I'll eat my hat!!(I'm frowning) Your Affectionate Brother, John Adams |
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8 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38769 | ||
Greetings John! I'm sure we would make good neighbors, and one day we shall in heaven! Concerning the verses you cite, my only problem is with the assumption that "dead in sin" means unable to respond. That simply isn't what the verses say, and I cited numerous verses which say that people did seek God and/or respond to God. This is one point we definitely differ on! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38917 | ||
Dear Tim, I did'nt have time to respond fully to this post and I hope you don't think I'm trying to resurrect my question about those who never have heard the Gospel. Your verses (a-i) have no relavency (at least none that I can fathom) to The first part of my question: "What about the native in Africa who never even heard of Christ?". Your answer lists a)Rebekah b)Jethro c)Asa, The tribes of Judah and Benjamin d)Jehoshaphat (who in this verse is commended for not seeking the Baals)etc. etc. I know you have been busy and have grown weary of the topic. But Tim, the proof texts you offered have proved nothing relative to my question! I know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you cannot offer any scriptual proof in response to what happens to those who never heard the Gospel. I'm as sure of it as I am sure that Dr. Giesler is an arminian! (I'm not being mean, I'm just being emphatic). The promise is to Abraham and His seed. Not to the fleshy seed but to the spiritual seed. Not to Ishmael but to Iassac; Not to Esau but to Jacob; Not to National Israel but to the Remnant; Not to the entire world but to those who believe, Not to the reprobate but to the elect. I see the Bible as God's revelation to His chosen people. In it we find who made the universe, why it was made, who we are, what we are, where we are going and who we are and in what manner we are to worship. In it He has graciouly disclosed to us His eternal purpose. How we have been His for all eternity. We were chosen in Christ from before the founding of the world. God does not peer into the future to find out who (if any) will take up His offer! He knows the beginning from the end and He knows it certainly, because He predetermined every thing that has and will, for all eternity, take place. I truly believe that a comprehensive appreciation of the nature and attributes of God are indispensible to rightly divide His Word. If I'm not tickled pink with everything that God has done, tough! I brief reflection on His Holiness and my filthiness, will soon enough send me to my knees asking forgiveness for my lack of trust in His righteous judgements. There is much more I could say, but if you do not want to hear it, I'll buton my lips (lot'sa folks wish I had a button on my lips for real). Maybe they have a point? But they'll have to prove it from scripture. Your Brother John |
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