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NASB | 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | 1 John 2:2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature--our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world. |
Subject: How do you respond to these passages? |
Bible Note: Greetings Joe! Thanks for the response! It is much easier to discuss an issue like this when we both deal with a particular Scripture or passage. Let me try to interact with your position. 1) I had to delete this point, my post was too long? :-) 2) Concerning your second, third, and fourth paragraphs: I would agree that the usage of ‘we’ through Rom. 5:1-11 is referring to believers. The context makes it abundantly clear. After all, he is writing to a church. However, that does not necessarily limit Paul’s comments about the actions of Christ only to believers. We have to ask, can Paul’s statements in Romans 5:6-10 also apply to all men? In other words, did Paul believe that Christ atoned for the sins of all men? Consider the following passages: a) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." Clearly in this passage, Paul felt that Christ’s atoning work applied to the WORLD, not just believers. b) 1 Tim. 2:4-6 - "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." Again, the ransom was for ALL men. c) Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." The reasons I appeal to these verses is simply this: While the specific audience of Romans 5:1-11 may be the church at Rome, what Paul says here applies equally to all men, as he makes clear in other Scriptures. So, one would not be guilty of reading something into the text to say that Christ died for all ungodly. Especially since, Rom. 5:10 uses the same terminology as 2 Cor. 5, where it is said that God reconciled the world to Himself. In answer to your final question of the fourth paragraph: Arminians would say that potentially all men are included in this category! 3) Concerning your fifth paragraph: According to 2 Cor. 5, all human beings have been reconciled to God at the cross. All that remains is for us to "be reconciled" as God Himself appeals to us through Paul. 4) Concerning your last paragraph: Romans 5:12-20 is the crucial passage for our discussion. Here Paul goes into a detailed explanation of what occurred as a result of Adam’s sin, and what occurred as a result of Christ’s death. You asked if all men condemned until Christ. According to v. 18, they were. You also asked if all men were justified through Christ. According to v. 18, they were. You also commented that Paul isn’t talking about "potential justification." However, isn’t that exactly the point of v. 17? Rom. 5:16 sets up a contrast, not a comparison. Continuing the contrast in v. 17, Paul says that death reigned upon all men through Adam’s sin (we know this from v. 12), but life only reigns in those who receive God’s grace. In light of Rom. 5:16-17, Arminians would say that atonement has been made for all men, but it effects only become active individually upon acceptance of the gift. I really appreciate your interaction. You have laid out a logical case. The only major weakness I can see is in your last sentence. And this is one of the major problems I have with Calvinism. Romans 5:12-20 is obviously dealing with the status of all men. Death came upon all because of Adam. Sin reigns in all because of Adam. Even Calvinists appeal to this passage for Original Sin. So, how can you take "all" in this passage to only mean all kinds of men? To me, this is the major weakness of Calvin, He was unwilling for all to mean all because his doctrine said that all could not mean all. You may have been trying to deal with this question in your last paragraph and I just didn't follow it. Can you provide one example where "all" clearly means "all kinds of men?" Frankly, I don’t buy that argument at all (no pun intended!) In English and in Greek, ‘all’ clearly refers to numerical quantity, not types. Where is there any indication in the verses I quoted in points 2a-c, that Paul is only saying that God only came to save certain kinds of people, and not every individual? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |