Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Did Christ die for the world? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 6540 | ||
Greetings Y'all: There have been several threads deaing with the extent of the atonment. Rather than rehasing all of those discussions, I would like to propose something different. A limited discussion on 1 John 2:2. Personally, I think the best way to debate an issue like this is to deal with a limited number of verses. Since I proposed this, I will start first. Here is my take on 1 John 2:2. The question concerning the extent of the atonement is simply this: Did Christ atone for all or only the elect? Many verses, which seem to indicate that Christ died for all, can be interpreted in such a way as to limit the extent of the word 'all.' However, 1 John 2:2 seems to be perfectly clear. There is a contrast here between believers (our sins) and unbelievers (the whole world). Christ is the propitation for all sin. Now, what does it mean that Christ is the propitation for all sin? The word 'hilasmos' is only used twice in the New Testament (Here and in 1 John 4:10). It signifies a turning a way of God's wrath by an offering. The entire ministry of Christ is signified by this word in 1 John 4:10. The gift of salvation in Romans 3:25 is described using a related word 'hilasterion.' This same word ('hilasterion') is used in Heb. 2:17 to refer to the priestly ministry of Christ. In my opinion, this verse is decisive. Christ died for the sins of everyone. The Cross is the one and only act of atonement for all men and for all sin. I don't see anyway, in light of this verse, that one can argue that Christ only died for the elect. p.s. - A note for all those who respond. Unless one is dealing with heresy, I view debate as an opportunity to sharpen our understanding of Scripture. By interacting with one another, we can see how others view Scripture, consider other points of view, and sharpen our ability to deal with objections to our viewpoints. We may never agree with each other, but I can live with that! God Bless, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Did Christ die for the world? | 1 John 2:2 | reformedreader | 6569 | ||
Morant61, First of all, I really appreciate anyone truly desiring to discuss this issue with an honest and open attitude. However, if you wish to entertain this discussion with only a limited use of scripture, I would say this can prove to be a fruitless effort when you want to limit it to the verses only "you" want us to use. That's like stacking the deck in your favor. Secondly, did Christ die for the sins of all humans or for all humans who sin? There is a big difference. 1 John 2:2 does not say Christ died for all humans, it says He died for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 4:10 also does not say Christ died for all humans, it says He died for "our" sins. If you force the term "whole world" to refer to "all humans", then that reasoning and 1 John 2:2 demands a strict and literal agreement with John 10:11 where John said Christ died for His "sheep". That would imply that all humans are Christ's sheep. The same writer would not contradict himself at 1 John 2:2 with what he said at John 10:11. John again states that Christ laid down His life for His sheep in verse 15. It is not a matter of what "seems" to be clear, it is a very distinct fact that for whomever Christ died, they are referred to as His sheep. John also makes it crystal clear that those who do not believe are so because they are not Christ's sheep. Now, since Christ laid down His life for His sheep, what does that say about those who are "not" His sheep? Romans 3:25 does not say anything whatsoever about for whom Christ died but, rather, for what He died and that would be sins. If we are going to be restricted to what verses we can observe, then the verses we observe must be viewed correctly in light of what they actually say. Sam Hughey |
||||||
3 | Whole world or not? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 6573 | ||
Greetings Sam! I agree that dealing with one verse is stacking the deck in my favor! However, it is my thread and if you don't want to play by my rules, I will take my thread and go home! :-) Seriously though, I did try to limit the discussion for a reason. The debate between Calvanism and Armnianism deals with many issues: The sovereignty of God, freewill, the order of decrees, human nature, original sin, grace, and a host of other theological issues. The problem I have is that many times we never deal with a particular point, but only throw around a bunch of "yeah, but what about this verse"'s. So, my goal was not to eliminate debate, but simply focus it. Now concerning the meat of your post! 1) You asked, "Did Christ die for the sins of all humans or for all humans who sin?" I'm not sure I see a huge difference since we all sin, but I understand where you are going. Can the phrase "the sins of the whole world" not mean every inividual? I say no! The term sin is modifed by a plural personal pronoun. It is not just sin, but our sin for which Christ died. Then, John goes on, not just our sin, but the sin of the whole world. If John is speaking of individuals in the first phrase, he must still be speaking of individuals in the second phrase. 2) How about John 10:11? First of all, each passage must be interpreted based upon it's own context. If in fact 1 John 2:2 refers to the whold world, that fact does not automatically mandate that "sheep" in John 10:11 must also refer to the whole world. John 10:11 and 1 John 2:2 are different books, and in different contexts. The sheep "parable" in John 10 is a story told to make a point. It was not intended to be a theological textbook for or against either Calvanism or Arminianism (though it may speak for or against either). In the sheep passage, Jesus makes several statements about His sheep. However, He does not say how one becomes (if possible) one of His sheep. He does not say why some are and some are not His sheep. And, if I understand your point correctly, the fact that Christ died for His sheep, in no way is a statement that Christ did not die for those who aren't His sheep. For instance, if I said that God loves Christians, does that mean that God hates non-Christians? There isn't any statment in John 10 that Christ did not die for anyone other than His sheep, while 1 John 2:2 specifically says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Aside: There are several issues that must be addressed in John 10 if we are to understand the theology of it. a) Who are the sheep? Elect as opposed to non-elect? Christians as opposed to non-Christians? Jews as opposed to non-Jews? b) Why does John 10:15 say that Christ died for "the sheep" and not "my sheep?" c) Who are the other sheep of John 10:16? I am more than happy to discuss other verses, post a thread with a verse or passage that you want to discuss and I'll respond. However, no one has yet given me a contextual reason why "the sins of the whole world" does not really mean the "whole world." The reason I chose this particual verse for debate was beause the phrase "whole world" cannot mean anything else. Either Christ was the propitation for the sins of the whole world or He wasn't. Which is it? In Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | Whole world or not? | 1 John 2:2 | ezekiel | 6594 | ||
1st. I think we need to define the word propitation. Translated from the Greek hilasterion,to "conciliate," proitation is the appeasement of the wrath of God through sacrifice, prayer, or some other means. Personel guilt is removed and a broken relationship with God is restored only by the sacrifice of Christ, recieved by faith and obedence. God has set forth Christ "to be a Propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearence of God" Was Christ the propitation for the sins of the Whole World. I say yes. Because It is God's perfect Will that none should Perish,all come to rightousness. But the final decision is left upto wheither they want to live for God or go to a sinners Hell. By Ezekiel |
||||||
5 | Whole world or not? | 1 John 2:2 | Ray | 6615 | ||
Hi Ezekiel, I like the rendering of Romans 3:25. What translation is it? Thanks, Ray | ||||||
6 | Whole world or not? | 1 John 2:2 | ezekiel | 6630 | ||
Ray Hi: May the Lord Bless you. Romans 3:25 KJV translation it's what I read most of the time and it is pretty well worn kinda like me. ha! Ezekiel |
||||||