Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38724 | ||
Tim, I may have to aswer you one question at a time, because of the demands on my time. 1). "The first question hinges on a Calvinistic understanding of Total Depravity. Arminians believe in Total Depravity, we just don't make the jump that 'dead' in sin means unable to respond. Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Rom 8:6,7 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so". Rom 5:12 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned". There are many other verses that support the total inability of man to will that which is pleasing to God. You will also note the the verses I chose are didactic. The meaning does not need to be deduced. they are clear in themselves. I say this in love: Who is the one doing the leaping? May Our Discourse Bring Praise to Our King. Your Brother John |
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2 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38732 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the response! I understand about the time pressures! :-) You concluded from your quotes: "There are many other verses that support the total inability of man to will that which is pleasing to God. You will also note the the verses I chose are didactic. The meaning does not need to be deduced. they are clear in themselves." Yet, not one of the verses you quoted said that man is unable to will that which is pleasing to God! They simply state that we are spiritually dead! However, spiritually dead doesn't mean unable to hear God or respond to Him. For instance, Norman Geisler in his book, "Chosen But Free: A Balanced Vew of Divine Election" makes the following point: "Second, even though they are spritually 'dead,' th unsaved persons can perceive the truth of God. In Romans, Paul declares emphatically that God's truth is 'clearly seen' by them so that they are 'without ecuse' (1:2). Adam and Eve were spiritually 'dead' after they at the forbidden fruit. Yt hey could hear the voice of God and rsponded to Him (Gen. 3:10). And this was not merely a hearing of the tangible sounds. Their reaction reveals that the understood the meaning of the words." (p. 59). These words are even coming from a Calvinist! I showed you numerous verses where people sought God, so how is it a leap to say that people can respond to God's gracious offer of salvation? In fact, Rom. 5:17b even says that those who "...receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." We agree that sin is universal (extending to all men) and extensive (effecting every part of man), but Scripture doesn't teach that sin is intensive (totally destroying the image of God in man). Man still has a conscience. Man still understands the difference between right and wrong. Man still feels guilt. Man sometimes does what is right. Man isn't as evil as he possibly could be, else everyone would be a Hitler. Well, I've got to go! I'll chat with you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38768 | ||
Dear Tim, Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Rom 8:6,7 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so" If you are not persuaded by these verses, I am at a loss to know what verses will persuade you. Being a good calvinist, I am absolutely certain that God has predestined all things (eph 3:11). In the plan of God all things work together for the good of the believer (RO 8:28). He not only has preordained the good works that His children perform, but even the evil men do and the evil the devil does are part of His plan. At the same time He is not the author of sin or does He force men to do His will. Christians fulfill good works because of their love of Christ. Wicked men and Satan fulfill his plan because they hate Him.(Acts 4:26,27). I am comforted by my belief that if God wants to turn you into calvinist He will.(Im smiling) All I have said has been in happy christian fellowship. I have grown fond of you. I am sure that if we were neighbors we would spend many enjoyable hours discussing the wonders of our God. PS. If brother Giesler is a REAL calvinist, I'll eat my hat!!(I'm frowning) Your Affectionate Brother, John Adams |
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4 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 38769 | ||
Greetings John! I'm sure we would make good neighbors, and one day we shall in heaven! Concerning the verses you cite, my only problem is with the assumption that "dead in sin" means unable to respond. That simply isn't what the verses say, and I cited numerous verses which say that people did seek God and/or respond to God. This is one point we definitely differ on! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Receive? | 1 John 2:2 | John Reformed | 38917 | ||
Dear Tim, I did'nt have time to respond fully to this post and I hope you don't think I'm trying to resurrect my question about those who never have heard the Gospel. Your verses (a-i) have no relavency (at least none that I can fathom) to The first part of my question: "What about the native in Africa who never even heard of Christ?". Your answer lists a)Rebekah b)Jethro c)Asa, The tribes of Judah and Benjamin d)Jehoshaphat (who in this verse is commended for not seeking the Baals)etc. etc. I know you have been busy and have grown weary of the topic. But Tim, the proof texts you offered have proved nothing relative to my question! I know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you cannot offer any scriptual proof in response to what happens to those who never heard the Gospel. I'm as sure of it as I am sure that Dr. Giesler is an arminian! (I'm not being mean, I'm just being emphatic). The promise is to Abraham and His seed. Not to the fleshy seed but to the spiritual seed. Not to Ishmael but to Iassac; Not to Esau but to Jacob; Not to National Israel but to the Remnant; Not to the entire world but to those who believe, Not to the reprobate but to the elect. I see the Bible as God's revelation to His chosen people. In it we find who made the universe, why it was made, who we are, what we are, where we are going and who we are and in what manner we are to worship. In it He has graciouly disclosed to us His eternal purpose. How we have been His for all eternity. We were chosen in Christ from before the founding of the world. God does not peer into the future to find out who (if any) will take up His offer! He knows the beginning from the end and He knows it certainly, because He predetermined every thing that has and will, for all eternity, take place. I truly believe that a comprehensive appreciation of the nature and attributes of God are indispensible to rightly divide His Word. If I'm not tickled pink with everything that God has done, tough! I brief reflection on His Holiness and my filthiness, will soon enough send me to my knees asking forgiveness for my lack of trust in His righteous judgements. There is much more I could say, but if you do not want to hear it, I'll buton my lips (lot'sa folks wish I had a button on my lips for real). Maybe they have a point? But they'll have to prove it from scripture. Your Brother John |
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