Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | home church | 368 | ||
If some people are chosen for salvation and some are chosen for hell how come the Bible says that God didn't make hell for people but only for satan and his angels, and how come we seem to be able to choose to sin even after we are saved. This would seem to go against God's will for His children. any help on this one would be much appreciated. | ||||||
2 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Rob Aronson | 68157 | ||
Dear Home Church, We have to trust that God loves us and gives the ability to choose any outcome for any situation that we want. Inherent within this ability, is the option to choose evil, and ultimately eternal seperation. Yes, this choice is against the will of God, but God does not force His will on us concerning this choice that we must all make. 2Pe:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God is not some cruel monster that winds us all up like toys and watches us spin out into predetermined outcomes for His amusement. I realize that this is not what you're saying, but many foolishly make this charge against God. Fully understanding the nature of free will, requires us to think outside of the reality that we know. We percieve reality as happening in a linear time-based fashion. That is, all events have a logical history of causes happening one after the other. Though imagine for a minute how God, being eternal and not subject to our time, sees time itself. God doesn't see events happening one right after the other, all time and all outcomes are laid out before Him. Before God created the universe, He knew the outcome of every choice that His free willed creations would choose. Now I realize that this may be difficult for us to fully comprehend or accept, but not for God. God's experience of existence is not the same as our experience, and this is due in part to our perception of time. Since God has seen every outcome and the final fate of the creation as an outside observer, the universe is in a sense predetermined. We, however, do not share in this knowledge. We percieve time in a linear fashion and do not know the outcome of all events, therefore, we live oblivious to them (though through prophecy, God has given us a limited knowledge of the future). To us, nothing in the future is "completely" known (even though God has given us a very detailed outline). As a result of this, our experience is completely free willed, and our lives are shaped by the decisions we make, the outcomes of which, we don't fully know until the choice is long behind us. These concepts are difficult to understand, but consider the following illustration concerning the mystery of prophecy: In ancient times, God delivered messages to His people using prophets. God would tell the prophet something like, "Tell my people that I have seen what they are doing, and I do not like what they are doing. Tell them that if they don't stop doing THIS, then THIS THING will happen to them." God, through prophets, also sometimes said things like, "Tell my people THIS so that they should avoid THAT, but they will not listen, therefore THIS THING will happen, for I have seen it." How could God know such things if He had not already seen them? Prophecy certainly attests to God's complete knowledge of all time and events. Also, prophecy is a great example that shows us that God truly cares, which can be summed up using one word: intervention. The greatest intervention that God ever made is shown by John 3:16, in that God came here Himself to save us and bring us back into a proper relationship with Him. Please understand, that built into free will is the option to choose the wrong thing (and all of us have done this). God has accounted for this and shown us why we must choose what is right, and learn not to choose what is evil. However, in order to know why we shouldn't choose evil, we had to first experience evil, otherwise we would've never known about it. By allowing the creation to experience the corruption of evil for a short time (in comparrision to eternity), God will make an end to evil and bring in everlasting peace once His plan is complete. Consider, can a parent make a child do everything right and never do anything wrong just by establishing rules? No way. Children have to learn through experience, no matter what their parents teach them or tell them, because they will not listen until they know better. Knowing comes with experience, but with no experience, knowledge cannot be ascertained, and nothing can be learned. God's creations are this same way: We can't just be told what the right way is, we have to learn what the right way is, and why it's better to choose than the wrong way based on our own experiences. Consider these questions: 1. Is the universe completely determined because God has seen it? Yes. 2. Do we share this ultimate knowledge of all events with God? No. 3. Do the choices we make directly affect our lives, and the lives of others? Yes. 4. Is accepting Christ a choice? Yes. 5. Do we have complete free will to choose then? Absolutely. God Bless, -Rob |
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3 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68259 | ||
Hello, Rob: Boy, you sure dug into the archives for this one! You wrote: "1. Is the universe completely determined because God has seen it? Yes." You are confusing foresight with predetermination. Does the Bible teach that God merely passively foresees everything, or that God is constantly active and sovereign over every last aspect of His creation? "2. Do we share this ultimate knowledge of all events with God? No." Again, is God someone who just KNOWS, or someone who CAUSES? "3. Do the choices we make directly affect our lives, and the lives of others? Yes." Those who believe in the biblical doctrine of election do not deny this. "4. Is accepting Christ a choice? Yes." Every Christian would agree with this as well. "5. Do we have complete free will to choose then? Absolutely." I don't see where you get the "then" here. The fact that at some point a person freely embraces Christ does not mean that every individual (including the convert) was BORN with that ability. One of the best treatments of the freedom of the will in Christian history was written by Jonathan Edwards. I warmly encourage you (and everyone else) to give it a read: http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/will/home.html --Joe! |
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4 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Rob Aronson | 68272 | ||
Dear Joe, I seem to always be misunderstood in this forum, perhaps I won't post anymore. At no time did I go against anything you said--you only percieved that I did because we use different words. Your objection to my first question actually limits God by attributing "foresight" to Him instead of complete omniscience. Your objection to my second question misses the point completely, I asked if we share omniscience with God, in which the answer is no. You however pose a senseless objection in the form of a question: Again, is God someone who just KNOWS, or someone who CAUSES? The question is whether or not we share the knowledge of all events with God. Your objection to my fifth question is because I used the word "then" at the end of my sentence: Do we have complete free will to choose then? Absolutely. I used "then" to signify the culmination of my line of questioning (the end that was gradually led to). To make a long story short, it is possible to have a universe completely predetermined and known by One Being, while at the same time giving His creations free-will. This only seems to be a paradox to us, but it's not to God. Note: Quantum physics predicts that if an outcome is observed by anyone, it collapses all other possiblities and makes the outcome a reality. Ponder that for a moment. God Bless, Take care everyone. I won't be posting anymore. I can't say anything without having my words picked apart. Take care, Rob |
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5 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 68276 | ||
Rob: This is a forum for discussing ideas, not a mutual admiration society. If the latter were the case, I would have been voted out long ago! Disagreement is going to occur among people on this forum. That is historically the way the church has gathered to hammer out sound theology. You wrote: "Your objection to my first question actually limits God by attributing "foresight" to Him instead of complete omniscience." No, I did not limit God's omniscience (a biblically supported concept) to mere foresight. What I DID imply that God's omniscience is not the same thing as God's foreordination of all events (another concept supported by the Bible). God at the same time knows all things and sovereignly governs them. You then wrote: "Your objection to my second question misses the point completely, I asked if we share omniscience with God, in which the answer is no. You however pose a senseless objection in the form of a question: Again, is God someone who just KNOWS, or someone who CAUSES? The question is whether or not we share the knowledge of all events with God." It wasn't senseless at all. I agree with your second point completely, but it has nothing to do with whether we have a nature that is morally capable of embracing God. Our lack of omniscience contributes absolutely nothing to any discussion of human free will. "Your objection to my fifth question is because I used the word "then" at the end of my sentence: Do we have complete free will to choose then? Absolutely. I used "then" to signify the culmination of my line of questioning (the end that was gradually led to)." And that is precisely what I hold as being erroneous. The conclusion you reach in no way logically and inescapably follows the four previous statements. You wrote: "To make a long story short, it is possible to have a universe completely predetermined and known by One Being, while at the same time giving His creations free-will. This only seems to be a paradox to us, but it's not to God." But the one thing I have not seen you address is what the Bible actually teaches about our moral ability to come to Jesus Christ. Even the classical Arminian declares it to be impossible without "prevenient grace" from God. What you are asserting is what can be considered to be (at the very least) semi-Pelagianism. You wrote: "Note: Quantum physics predicts that if an outcome is observed by anyone, it collapses all other possiblities and makes the outcome a reality. Ponder that for a moment." Quantum physics is not science; it is theoretical philosophy. And it runs counter to the biblical assertion of an ontological reality apart from our perceptions. Quantum physics goes farther than what you stated above; quantum physics states that our observation of things MAKES something real. Reality does not depend on our observations of it, no matter what people may say about the sounds trees make when falling in isolated forests. If YOU wish to ponder both quantum physics and chaos theory from a biblical perspective, I recommend R.C. Sproul's book, _Not a Chance._ Lastly, you wrote: "Take care everyone. I won't be posting anymore. I can't say anything without having my words picked apart." And neither can I. Welcome to public discourse. --Joe! |
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6 | do we have any free will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 68288 | ||
"This is a forum...I would have been voted out long ago!"...... Not by me, you wouldn't! I even get the jitters when a week goes by and I don't see any new pearls of wisdom cast from your quarters! So, am I disagreeing with your self-assessment? Yes, emphatically. [The hardest thing about making this post has been talking myself into bragging on a Texan.] --Hank | ||||||