Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 34502 | ||
Zach: I must say that in typical Arminian fashion, you quote all of the "whosoever will" passages, which do not present the slightest problem for the Reformed theologian; and completely ignore those passages which explicitly speak of man's inability and unwillingness to come to Christ unless persuaded to do so by the Holy Spirit. Those persuaded to do so will willingly embrace Him, and those not persuaded to do so will willingly reject Him. Our wills are constrained by our nature, and our sinful natures must be changed supernaturally so that we will indeed love God instead of hate Him. 'And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."' --John 6:65 (not "The Father accepts whomever decides on this/her own initiative to come to Him.") "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." --John 6:44 (not "you are free to accept or reject Jesus") "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." --John 6:37 (not "God accepts whoever comes to Christ on their own"; notice in all of these verses who is initiating and causing the activity) We can play "quotation ping-pong" all day long if you wish Zach, with every Arminian quoted being contradicted by a Reformed theologian. Those of us in the other camp understand the Arminian view far better than you seem to understand the Reformed one, so it really doesn't contribute to the discussion to hear from any Arminian scholar unless the Arminian view is being misrepresented by us. I contend that it isn't being misrepresented here, only challenged. In closing, you write: "How can man be held accountable to God for his actions in judgment without freewill?" We do have free will, and our depraved nature makes us want nothing but sin (Romans 3:10-18). Until God changes us, that is all we will ever want, and we are unable to want anything else (Romans 8:7-9). Paul anticipates your question, however, and answers it in Romans 9:19 ff. "Is it fair to send someone to hell for sins he was forced to commit having no freewill?" No one is forced by God to be a sinner (James 1:13). Thanks to the Fall, that is what we WANT to do. It is our nature. Sin itself is a willful rebellion AGAINST God's will. That is the category in which we all have found ourselves. The difference between us and the non-Christian is that God has allowed some to continue down the sinful path to destruction, and has rescued some of us, changing our natures and causing us to WANT to embrace Christ. Just to clear up your understanding of effectual calling, here is the Westminster Shorter Catechism's rendering of the doctrine: "Q31. What is effectual calling? A. Effectual calling is the work of God's Spirit, whereby, convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our will, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel." So, according to our view, it is God who enlightens our minds (not us), God who enables us to embrace Christ (not us), and God who renews our wills (which were previously contrained by our fallen, depraved natures), and God who persuades us to trust in Christ (we trust, but it is God who must persuade us to do so, and He accomplishes this perfectly). --Joe! |
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2 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34532 | ||
Greetings Joe! An Arminian would counter your John 6:44 with John 12:32. :-) Which raises an interesting question! Are there any verses which limit who Christ will draw? I agree with you on John 6:44. I also agree that in our depravity, we would never desire God. Where we part company is that I believe God draws all, not just some. John 12:32 defines the extent of the drawing, but John 6:44 doesn't. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 34540 | ||
Tim: Of course, your Reformed brethren would counter your take on John 12:32 with the question: "Are indeed ALL human beings drawn to Christ?" I see many who are nothing but repelled by him... John 6:44 itself does not limit the extent of the drawing, but we see in the larger context of Jesus' discourse that there is some limitation. In John 6:37 we see that all that God has given to Jesus WILL come to him, and that He will not cast us out. Verse 6:39 says that Jesus will lose none of those the Father has given him, and that he will raise us up on the last day. That second phrase is repeated in the next verse (a "whosoever will" verse) and in 6:44 and in 6:54. I think it is safe to conclude that those whom Jesus is talking about are the saints of God. So what we see about those who will be "raised up on the last day" is the following I use "we" and "us" here because we as believers belong to this category): 1. God has given us to the Son, and all of us WILL come to Christ (John 6:37,39) 2. We are those who will believe in Christ (6:40). 3. We cannot come unless the Father draws us (6:44,65). 3. We will "eat the flesh and drink the blood" of the Son (6:54) This is why I hold that we CANNOT come without the Father drawing us, and that we WILL come when the Father does draw us. Therefore, one can infer that the reason people do not come to the Son is because the Father does not draw them. In fact, we see from John 6:66 that Jesus' words had precisely the opposite effect on some who had been following him (for whatever reason) up to that point. Therefore, I hold that John 6:44 contributes to the larger discourse in John 6 of who is able to come, and who will or will not believe in the Son. --Joe! |
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4 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34554 | ||
Greetings Joe! What then would you say is the meaning of John 12:32? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 34560 | ||
Tim: Oh, you know the argument... :) --Joe! |
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6 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34567 | ||
Greetings Joe! LOL I appreciate your gentle spirit my friend! We have had the chance to debate these issues several times, and you have always been a gentleman and treated me like a brother in Christ. One of these days, we will know who was right! :-) Until then, I hope everyone takes note that individuals can disagree about positions and still love one another! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 34573 | ||
Tim: My wife would be the one laughing the hardest at you saying I have a "gentle spirit"! I must say that is the first time I can be accused of that particular vice... :) --Joe! |
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8 | What is Free Will? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34579 | ||
Greetings Joe! I have to admit though, it is harder to 'argue' with someone you like! :-) By the way, my wife might feel the same way about me! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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