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NASB | Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. [Ps 19:1-4; Eph 2:10] |
Subject: Is God somehow responsible? |
Bible Note: Greetings John! I'm so confused. I don't know who I'm talking to anymore! :-) All me to touch upon your sections in order! 1) Why do I think that God does not determine every action and thought? a) God cannot be the author of sin. b) No one can be held accountable for a forced action. c) Some things do happen that God does not will. d) Some things that God wills do not happen. So, apparently, God does not ordain every single thought and action of man. 2) Back to Adam and Eve. Actually, not all Calvinists would agree with your position here. Those who hold (or at least some) to Supralapsarianism would say that even Adam and Eve did not have free will. You said: "God did ordain that they would sin but did not coerce or force their decision." This is a logical impossibility. How can someone freely do what I predetermined that they would do? Did God know that they would sin? Yes! Did He plan for it? Yes! Did He cause it? No! You also said: "But we know that God's plan is a perfect plan and therefore I, for one, will rest easy and not attempt to answer questions that the Bible has not provided answers for." Yet, there isn't a single verse which says that man does not have free will! :-) 3) Piper: The example of the betrayal of Jesus is an excellent example. However, notice what it does and does not say. Acts 2:23 does not that the people's choices were predetermined, it says that that Jesus was delievered up to them according to the boule and foreknowledge of God. In fact, who handed Jesus over if it was not God. They couldn't take Jesus by force! So, God knew what they would do and allowed it, but He did not determine what their choices or actions would be. He did use their actions and choices for His plan, which He can do because He is sovereign. Where I differ with Piper though is simply this: a) Piper sees God as having differing wills which are in conflict with one another. He wills to save all, but He also wills something else and can't save all. b) I see God has only having one will toward us, but His will is contstrained by His sovereign choice to give us moral freedom. He can't force His will upon, or He violates His own creation. So, the source of conflict is in a sense external (even though our freedom is derived). Piper and I both agree that something God willed did not in fact come to pass. We just differ on why it didn't come to pass. My take on the difference between these two positions is this: a) Piper's view makes God guilty of not doing something that He wills and could do! This doesn't make any sense to me. It would be like me saying that I wanted to go to work today, but I didn't. Why? Was my car broke? Was I sick? Did my alarm fail? No? I wanted to stay home and watch the football game. So, did I really 'want' to go to work? Even in my limited power, I could find a way to both, but God can't? b) Mine says that God willed all to be saved, atoned for all, and offered salvation to all. He has done everything that He can to accomplish His will. Well, I've got to get to bed my friend! Have a Merry Christmas. Hopefully, I'll get your name straight eventually! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |