Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Was it complete? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51192 | ||
Hello brother Tim, Personally, I just can't get around Romans 6, especially when it’s filtered through other selected verses. “Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (what of those who haven't been immersed into his death?) Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, …” “buried with him into death…” as you said in one of your notes, “I really don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp!” Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Paul had not yet passed through physical death when these words were written. Is the crucifixion of which he speaks merely in his mind? Is Paul’s crucifixion a matter of mere belief? There is an immense and awesome change at work in these verses. It’s kinda’ like one saying, “I used to be Tim, but now Napoleon has taken over my life.” Like much of the New Testament, it’s either right on the money or it’s insanity (ya gotta love Festus!). I think Paul is teaching that he was crucified with Christ at Paul’s baptism. He was immersed into Christ’s death, his faith made it real and his faith was made real with action. (James 2:19 “Even the demons believe…”) After his baptism, but before his death, Christ answered James’ and John’s presumptuous request this way, "‘You don't know what you are asking,’" Jesus said. "’Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?’" (Mk 10:38) Jesus was not talking about his immersion at the Jordan in John’s hands. The thorns and nails were not a matter of getting wet or of mere belief. I think He was talking about His suffering and death, the very same death Paul speaks of in Romans and Galatians. Was Christ’s death on the cross a ‘work’ as so many like to call baptism? Is death a work? Paul says he “was crucified with Christ!” Was Paul doing a ‘work’ when he was united with Christ in his death? “I really don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp!” |
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2 | Was it complete? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 51260 | ||
Greetings Let It Rain! Thanks for joining in the discussion and welcome to the forum! What Christ did on our behalf was definitely a 'work'. I love both of the passages you quoted from Paul. They both speak of what it means to 'be in Christ' as a believer. But, neither of them teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. Just to make sure we both understand where I am coming from, my position is that baptism is commanded in Scripture and is important - but, that baptism does not play any part in saving us. Our salvation is accomplished 'by grace through faith' alone - Eph. 2:8-9. The importance of this topic is simple. Was Christ's death of the Cross sufficient to save, or do I need to 'do' something else in order to be saved? The clear teaching of Scripture is that I cannot be saved by 'works' of any kind, but that after I am saved I am called to 'do' good works. The difference is simple - 'works' in Scripture are a result of salvation, not the cause of salvation. Now, on to Romans 6. The context is one of sanctification. How can believers, who are in Christ, continue to sin? To drive this point home, Paul appeals to the meaning of baptism. Now, is Paul talking about water baptism or spiritual baptism? Opinion in split on this issue and nothing in the text mandates either view. But, even assuming that water baptism is the subject of the passage, notice that the passages never once says that baptism saves or is necessary for salvation. What does Rom. 6 say? It refers to believers as having been united with Christ, crucified, and raised with Him. Did we literally die? Were we actually buried? Were we hanging on the cross? Of course we weren't. But, in Christ, we were. He was hanging on the cross on our behalf. He died in our place. He raises us up and makes us new creations. But, it is not baptism which accomplishes these things, it is the death of Christ. Baptism is a cermonial act which testifies symbolically to the spiritual realities accompished in our lives by faith. The problem with baptismal regeneration is that it turns this beautiful testimony into a 'work' which is necessary to 'do' in order to earn salvation. Instead of pointing to what Christ has done for us, baptismal regeneration points to what we have done to 'obey'. Concerning Gal. 2, baptism is never mentioned in any fashion. Further, read the whole chapter. Paul stresses over and over again that no one can attain rightousness through obedience to the Law. Baptismal regeneration replaces the old Law with a new Law, but ignores faith. Notice the number of times that 'faith' is mentioned in Gal. 2. Here is a key verse: "know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." - Gal. 2:16 Justification comes through faith in Christ, not through anything that we 'do'. And of course, the clincher is Jesus' own words when He was asked what we must do to do the works which God requires. He said: "Jesus answered, ‘‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”" - John 6:29. If there were ceremonies or rituals that we must do in addition to simply having faith, then Jesus gave a very imcomplete answer. Surely, if baptism were necessary for salvation, He would have said to 'believe and be baptized'. The same thing occurs when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he MUST DO to be saved. What was Paul's response? "They replied, ‘‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”" - Acts 16:31. No mention is made here of needing to be baptized to be saved. Baptism isn't mentioned until after they are saved - then and only then, the jailer is baptized. I went long on this response, but I wanted to be clear. Again, welcome to the forum! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Was it complete? | Bible general Archive 1 | Cyclist | 51266 | ||
Brother Tim Moran, Blessed be the Lord our God forever, and His Son Jesus Christ who died for our sins! Don't want to interfer with or get invovled in the discussion. Just wanted to post a note to say that your post was SUPER! God bless you brother! Cyclist I will bless the Lord at all times! His praise shall continually be in my mouth! |
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4 | Was it complete? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 51267 | ||
Greetings Cyclist! Thanks for the support! :-) Anyone is welcome to join in at anytime! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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