Subject: need for a bible-anyone |
Bible Note: I agree with most of what you say here, which is making me wonder why we are in such seeming disagreement. You wrote: "(where is your fruit?) This individual is not bearing the fruit of his salvation. He is claiming faith, but is not displaying any." Exactly. And Jesus said that we will know the tree by their fruits. No works? No faith. But the works and the faith are not the same thing, but as you correctly put it, works are the EVIDENCE of saving faith. You wrote: "(again, bearing fruit, serving, doing what is expected of one claiming Christ) If I don’t bear fruit-will this affect my salvation?" No it won't effect your salvation; it will show that you never truly possessed saving faith to begin with. I will stand with you 100 percent in saying that God-honoring works are the fruit and evidence/proof of saving faith. But it is the faith through which we are saved, not works. You have the order all wrong. You wrote: "So is baptism. Faith in what God has commanded is going to do what He says it will." We are not saved by "faith in what God commanded"; we are saved by faith in what Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf. The idea of having faith in a commandment doesn't even make any sense. We can have faith in the outcome of obeying a commandment, but if I tell my student to turn in his homework, there is nothing there to have faith in. Believer's baptism is a response to faith, not something that is an aspect of faith. Even you agree that we have faith BEFORE we are baptized, so obviously one is the result of the other. You wrote: 'So, did the Israelites need to “outwardly manifest” obedience with circumcision? God sought to put Moses to death for failing to circumcise his son. Exodus 4:24-26 And before you cry irrelevant, is it not a parallel to your claim above?' Why would I cry irrelevant? I hold that much more of the Old Testament is relevant than you hold it to be. The Israelites needed to "outwardly manifest" circumcision. Absolutely. Like baptism, it is a commandment of God and following it in faith (not as an empty ritual like many Jews took it to be) was a demonstration of the belief in God's promise that pre-existed the circumcision. And it was the belief that saved them. Moses had disobeyed God, and you are right that the Scriptures showed God seeking to kill him for his disobedience. It is a very stupid thing to disobey God, especially when you are God's appointed deliverer for His people. We are not clear on what exactly God did to demonstrate that He was seeking Moses' life, but we do no several things, going from the "sum" of Scripture. First, since Moses was the one called to deliver Israel according to God's decree, Moses was going to live. Therefore, God's death-stalking, whatever form it took, got its intended result: to bring Moses' family into obedience. We see nothing regarding Moses' eternal destiny in Exodus 4. And it is parallel to my claim above. Circumcision was an outward mark of belonging to the people of God. So is baptism. Circumcision didn't save anyone, but rather was a demonstration of the faith that was already present on the part of the parents. The faith and the sign should never be separated, and those who refused to follow God's commands regarding circumcision should not be counted among God's people. However, I trust we do not need to examine all of the passages in the New Testament which clearly point out that circumcision did not save anyone. Likewise, believer's baptism is a sign and seal of God's promise. It is an outward sign pointing to the fact that the recipient is to be counted among God's people. It is also a commandment and a demonstration of true saving faith for adults who receive it. If someone does not get baptized, I would wonder if that person's faith was genuine, and with good reason. However, baptism is not faith. It is not belief. It is an outward manifestation of that belief, and therefore the result of justification, not a means to it. --Joe! |