Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50721 | ||
Greetings Grace and Truth! If I understand your argument correctly, it was possible to be saved before the death of Christ by simply believing, but now one must believe and be baptized! Is this what you are saying? Personally, I accept the countless Scriptures which specifically state that we are saved through Grace by faith alone - whether in the Old or New Testaments. :-) Further, Paul definitely did not include baptism as part of the Gospel message when he said: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." (1 Cor. 1:17) In my mind, this is what the insistence on baptism does. It empties the cross of it's power. Concerning the text of Mark 16, facts are facts my friend. There are four versions of the ending of Mark. 1) The first does not have the last twelve verses of the commonly receved text of Mark. To quote Bruce Metzger: They "...are absent from the two odest Greek manuscrpts, from the Old Latin codex Bobienss, the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgia manuscripts. Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knoledge of the existence of these verses, furthermore Eusebious and Jerome attest that the passage was abent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The orginal form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammoninu) makes no provision for numbeing sections fo the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indiate a spurious addition to a document." Source (A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger, pp. 122-123). 2) The second ending is found in several mid to late versions. It says, "But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told And after this Jesus himself sent out by meas of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishble proclamation of eternal salvation." This addition is then followed by vv. 9-20 in most of the manuscripts containing this ending. 3) The third is the traditional ending (vv. 9-20). It is found in the vast number of witnesses: including, A, C, D, k, X, W, ect... The only problem is that these manuscripts are not as old as those supporting the first manuscript and they contain a different style of writting than the rest of Mark. 4) There was also a longer version which circulated in the fourth century accoding to Jermore. It is only found in one Greek manuscript. Thus, the facts are that the ending of Mark is in quite a bit of dispute. It is not found in the hundreds of the oldest manuscripts. My position is that it is not safe to base an entire doctrine upon a disputed text. But, even more, even if the text is orignal, it simply doesn't mean what you claim. Rather than base my doctrine on a disputed passage with a disputed meaning, I would stick to the clear and undsiputed words of Christ in John 6:28:-29: "28 Then they asked him, ‘‘What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, ‘‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”" Or, the words of Paul in Eph. 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Or, the words of Paul in Chapter four of Romans. Or, Romans Chapter 9. The list goes on and on of clear, explicit statements that we are not and cannot be saved by works, but only by grace through faith. No one on this forum is arguing that Christians should not be baptized. Scripture clearly commands Christians to do so, just as it commands us to worship together, make disciples of all nations, love one another, ect.... But, none of these things save us, only the grace of God can save those who believe. I could never accept your church's position until they can find some way to explain these clear statements of Scripture which are explicitly ignored by the believe in baptismal regeneration. They are God's Word just as much at Mk. 16:16 or Acts 2:38, yet they are ignored. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Grace and Truth | 50765 | ||
"Scripture clearly commands Christians to do so" You state that scripture clearly commands christians to do so! If one is commanded to do what the Lord said, is it no for his/her salvation? Your belief is we are saved by grace alone through faith! What about Hope,Rom 8:24; 1Peter3:19-21 water,baptism. |
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3 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50771 | ||
Greetings Grace and Truth! Is every command for salvation? No! Most of the commands are only possible because of salvation. We can only love because we have been saved. We should be baptized because we have been saved. We should attend church because we have been saved. But, none of these 'works' save us (Eph. 2:8-9, ect...). How about Rom. 8:24? We are saved 'in' hope, not 'by' hope. How about 1 Peter 3:19-21? I have already posted on this question several time, but my short version is this: Peter himself stresses emphatically that baptism does not cleanse the flesh, but is simply the answer of a good conscience toward God. I have tried to honestly and thoroughly deal with each Scripture you have presented to me. Why don't you go back to my previous post and respond to the Scriptures listed there? How can they be true, if baptism is necessary for salvation? How can works be necessary for salvation, when Eph. 2:8-9 (among others) specifically states that we are not saved by works? Many people have asked these questions about baptismal regeneration, but all we have gotten in return is more questions. We may never agree on this issue my friend, but I would like to see how you honestly deal with these verses. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Grace and Truth | 50983 | ||
Eph 2:8-9 Let's look at the text here, the word faith in the text, you believe that it's talking about belief? The faith in this text refer to the gospel and not your belief! "For by grace are ye saved through the faith (the gospel): and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" This is how the text reads. The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, match that with Romans 6:3-4 baptism is the same responce, we are dead because of sin, we are buried, and we are raised up out of the watery grave of baptism to walk in the newness of life "all through faith in Jesus Christ" that's what the bible teaches! You mentioned 1Peter 3:19-21 We know Peter was not talking about taking a bath, he explained how baptism works God's salvation through faith when one is baptized, it clear one's conscience, baptism doth ALSO NOW SAVE US! WHO'S THE US IN THE TEXT? EVERYONE WHO SUBMITS TO BAPTISM, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT SAVES (NOW) YOU DON'T BELIEVE GOD'S WORD! (NO IT'S NOT A BATH) IT'S IN THE GOSPEL, PETER, PHILIP,PAUL AND JESUS PREACH IT, HOW ABOUT YOU! | ||||||
5 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50999 | ||
Greetings Grace and Truth! Good try my friend, but your handling of Eph. 2:8-9 doesn't work for 3 reasons. 1) First of all, the Greek text of Eph. 2:8 does not read 'through THE faith'. The phrase is 'dia pistews'. 2) Secondly, you ascribing to the noun 'faith' a meaning which it does not usually possess. 'Pistis' is simply the noun form of 'pisteuo', the word which we translate as 'believe'. So 'pistis' is simply believe or trust placed in someone or something. For instance, Romans 3:22 uses both the verb and the noun form together: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference," Faith here, is nothing more and nothing less than belief or trust in Jesus Christ. Gal. 2:16 is pertinent to our discussion both because of the way it uses the word 'faith' and because of the message of the verse. It says, "know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." Notice again that 'faith' here is believe or trust in someone - in this case, Jesus Christ. So, it is not correct to say that 'faith' in Eph. 2:8-9 refers to 'The Faith' - and make it artifically include 'works' which are explicitly ruled out in the verse as a means of salvation. 3) And finally, it violates everything that the New Testament says about the role of works in the life of a believer (Rom. 4-5, Galations, ect...). Concerning 1 Pe. 3:19-21, I agree with you tat baptism is a type, but I differ in my interpretation of this passage. Peter explicitly says that baptism does not cleanse the flesh - but is an answer of a good conscience toward God. So, when does baptism occur in the life of an individual? After one has been cleansed, in response to the command of Christ. But, baptism is not necessary for salvation - it is a response to God's grace, not a means of obtaining God's grace. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Mark 16:16 what does it say? | Bible general Archive 1 | Grace and Truth | 51012 | ||
My friend Tim Moran, You have now made one step closer to the truth in you statement: "Concerning 1 Pe. 3:19-21, I agree with you that baptism is a type " 1Peter 3:19-21 Shows us where baptism works, by faith on our conscience! again it's not a bath, we are to submit to it by faith in Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, as in Acts 2:38;22:16 " to wash away our sins" That's what God commanded, through Jesus Christ! |
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