Results 1 - 9 of 9
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50427 | ||
Greetings Mouse2! Thanks for your response! I do still fail to see the difference between the denomination known as the Church of Christ and other Christian denominations. :-) The church which Jesus established is the Body of Christ. It is made up of all those who have named the name of Christ, no matter what denomination they happen to worship in. Concerning your points of distinction: 1) Does not apply to any denomination - including the Church of Christ. It was begun or organized by specific men at a specific point in history. 2) Would apply to all Christian denominations. 3) Would apply to all Christian denominations. 4) Is not relevant at all. Anyone can call themselves "The Church of Christ", but that doesn't make it so! :-) So, I don't see anything which points to the denomination of the Church of Christ as being the 'true' church while excluding (Baptists, Lutherans, Nazarenes, Methodists, ect...). It seems that the Church of Christ's position is an example of the worst of denominationalism - we are right and everyone else is wrong! ;-) I don't agree with every particular belief of every denomination. But, I do consider everyone who has named the name of Christ as my brothers and sisters, no matter which particular denomination they worship at. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | mouse2 | 50457 | ||
Funny how Paul, John and other apostles did not see it that way. Gal 1:8-9 explicitly states false teaching will grant you condemnation. If belonging to a particluar denomination doesn't matter, why the tiff with the Gnostics, and other false teachers? Why the many many warnings in learning to discern good from evil, truth from falsehood? Heb 2:1, 1 John 4:1 Why the warn against following after those who wish to have their ears tickled? 2 Tim 4:2-3 Why the warning of "Many will say to Me in that day Lord, Lord..." (Matt 7:21-23) You wrote: It seems that the Church of Christ's position is an example of the worst of denominationalism - we are right and everyone else is wrong! ;-) That would be God's position that you take issue with, since you refuse to read the Scriptures. Many believe Jesus was a "good man, a great prophet, but the Son of God?" Would they be your siblings too? “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19 People in Noah's day would echo that, but, oops!, they were washed away. Noah, God only spoke to you? (And no-God did not speak audibly to me, just making a point here) God would not destroy us all!? Why do we feel we are above heeding what God commanded? I'm not inventing this; we can all read the Scriptures for ourselves. Have a great one. Mouse2 |
||||||
3 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50459 | ||
Greetings Mouse2! Allow me to address your two main points! 1) False teaching: False teaching should and must be addressed. The gnostics denied the very Deity of Christ and thus were not part of the Body of Christ. However, not all 'false' teaching is on the same level. As Joe has pointed out several times, He and I differ on our understandings of election. We both feel that we are correct. We both can point to Scripture that supports our position. However, one of us must be wrong (logically). But, we both are in agreement concerning the essentials of our faith and consider one another brothers in Christ. Not every doctrine is as important as others. We must agree on who Christ is, but we may not agree on when or how He will return. 2) God's position: I don't recall any verse which mentions a denomination, called the Church of Christ, started in 18 something by a couple of individuals who felt that somehow everyone else was wrong and they were right. I have read the Bible through many times, in several languages, but I have yet to see that verse. :-) What I do see though is that the Church is made up of all those God has called, justified, sanctified, ect... But, never any mention of this particular denomination. We all pretty well agree that denominationalism is not the best thing which has ever happened to the Church. But, to start another denomination, and say it isn't a denomination, is not the answer to the problem. :-) Nor, is the answer to exclude everyone from the Kingdom of God who isn't part of your denomination. Scripture simply doesn't define the term 'Christian' in that way my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | mouse2 | 50497 | ||
Greetings again, You wrote: I don't recall any verse which mentions a denomination, called the Church of Christ, started in 18 something by a couple of individuals who felt that somehow everyone else was wrong and they were right. I have read the Bible through many times, in several languages, but I have yet to see that verse. :-) What I do see though is that the Church is made up of all those God has called, justified, sanctified, ect... But, never any mention of this particular denomination. We all pretty well agree that denominationalism is not the best thing which has ever happened to the Church. But, to start another denomination, and say it isn't a denomination, is not the answer to the problem. :-) Nor, is the answer to exclude everyone from the Kingdom of God who isn't part of your denomination. Scripture simply doesn't define the term 'Christian' in that way my friend! More questions for you…Is it possible for to be non-denominational? What about the church of Christ makes it a denomination? What facet of its practice is of human origin? It is patterned after the church in the NT: -It has the correct structure: Jesus as head (Eph 1:22-23); elders/deacons (Titus 1, 1 Tim 3) -Acapella singing Eph 5:19 -Lord’s Supper observed every 1st day of the week Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 11:23, Acts 2:42 - Baptism for the remission of sins Acts 2:38 1 Peter 3:21 -Scriptural name Romans 16:16 Again I ask, what part of that is human origin? Mouse2 |
||||||
5 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50501 | ||
Greetings Mouse2! Some of the points you raise could be said of every denomination - or at the very least would be said by their supporters. Now, on to your specifics. 1) Correct structure: There are verses which mention certain elements of structure, but none that prescribe a certain structure as being the 'only' way. 2) Acapella Singing: No matter how one interprets Eph. 5:19, there isn't a single verse anywhere in the Bible which forbids the use of musical instruments. 3) Lord's Supper: Passages describe occurances of the Lord's Supper, but no passage defines how often one must observe the Lord's Supper or on what day. 4) Baptism for the remission of sins: As the numerous posts on this issue illustrate, there is not a unanimous understanding of what the Bible teaches on this issue. 5) Scriptural name: This almost doesn't even deserve a response. :-) But, notice that 1 Cor. 11:16 refers to the Churches of God. And, Gal. 1:22 refers to the Churches of Judea. These phrases are descriptive, not commands about what we are to call ourselves. The only church which can truly claim to be non-denomination is a single local church with no other connections to any other church. What facet of the Church of Christ is of human origin? 1) Their start in the 1800 under Alexander Campbell and whoever else. 2) Their unique interpretation of what it means to be a church. 3) Their unique view that they, and only they, are the correct denomination - Just to name a few. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
6 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | mouse2 | 50543 | ||
Tim, my original post is too long so I'll divide it to part 1 and 2. 1. Correct Structure: You wrote: There are verses which mention certain elements of structure, but none that prescribe a certain structure as being the 'only' way. Read John 14:6. We have established that Jesus is the head of all things, Eph 1:22-23 2 offices and respective work were created by God. Definite qualifications for those offices exist. (Titus 1; 1 Tim 3) They, elders and deacons, had definite roles in the church. Deacons, as their title indicates, are servants. Servants under and assisting the eldership. The elders are to shepherd the flock of God among themselves. 1 Peter 5:2-4. Doesn’t seem optional to me, when there are qualified men to serve. 2. Acapella Singing: You wrote: No matter how one interprets Eph. 5:19, there isn't a single verse anywhere in the Bible which forbids the use of musical instruments. Last time I checked, we were still under the New Covenant Heb 8:13. Eph 5:19 “…speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;…” Acts 16:25 “ But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them;…” Rom 15:9 “and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, ‘THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME’." 1 Cor 14:15 “What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.” Col 3:16 “Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.” Matt 26:30 “After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.” Heb 2:12 “saying, ‘I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE’." Heb 13:15 “Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.” Jas 5:13 “Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.” Lastly, remember there are 2 kinds of commands issued: generic and specific. For example, when Noah was given instructions for building the ark (Gen 6:14), God said specifically gopher wood. That automatically excludes all other types of wood, does it not? IF God had said, “make an ark of wood, ” that would have be generic authority. Noah would have been free to select whatever type of wood he saw fit to use. IF the NT had said, “Make music” we would be free to use whatever we saw fit to use, vocal, instrumental, or both. He specifically said, “Sing.” There is no mention of instrumental music anywhere in the NT. Christ left it out, which settles it for me. You wrote: The only church which can truly claim to be non-denomination is a single local church with no other connections to any other church. What connections? Connected how? Mouse2 |
||||||
7 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50558 | ||
Greetngs Mouse2! Concerning your points: 1) We agree that Christ is the Head of the Church. However, even though the qualifications for certain offices are spelled out in Scripture, there isn't a single verse which prescribes what structure a local church must have. We have a very loose idea about the sructure, but apparently God didn't think it was important enough to lay out definite commands about how a local church should be structured. 2) Frankly, this is an argument from silence. I could make the same case that God never specifically said that churches should meet in church builings; therefore, the Churches of Christ are violating Scripture by meeting in a building. One could say that the Bible never specifically commands that we use hymn books, or that the pastor stand in front of the congregation, ect.... Arguments from silence are not convincing. There is not a single verse which prohibits the use of musical instruments in worship; therefore, I am not violating Scripture by using musical instruments. This would seem to me to be one of those things added to Scripture which you keep mentioning. :-) 3) Connections: I realize that the Churches of Christ claim not to be a denomination, but let me ask you this: How does a church become a Church of Christ? Do they simply hang up sign? Or, is there some process by which a local church is recognized as being a Church of Christ? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
8 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | mouse2 | 50807 | ||
Tim, You wrote: Frankly, this is an argument from silence. I could make the same case that God never specifically said that churches should meet in church builings; therefore, the Churches of Christ are violating Scripture by meeting in a building. One could say that the Bible never specifically commands that we use hymn books, or that the pastor stand in front of the congregation, ect.... Arguments from silence are not convincing. If you have time, check out the lesson on this site: http://www.beavertonchurchofchrist.net/Authority_Class_7.htm I think it address the area of silence of the Scriptures very well. I don't believe silence gives permission. It certainly doesn't work that way in real life. I am curious about you thoughts about it afterward. Also on the points of hymn books and so forth, there is 2 other issues here: 1)generic and specific authority and 2)expediencies. If you choose to peruse the site, you shall run across lessons on those as well. mouse2 |
||||||
9 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 50812 | ||
Greeting Mouse2! Thanks for the site recommendation! Allow me to quote two passages from this site: 1) "If the Bible is complete and we are forbidden to add to or take away from it (Revelation 22:18-19), then we cannot reason that we have permission to do something that the Bible doesn’t authorize." and 2) "For people who ask the question, “But why can’t we?” We first need to ask, “What is their desire or motivation?” If permitted to do those things not mentioned in the Bible, then people end up doing many things not mentioned in the Bible, and a few things mentioned in the Bible, and all the while feeling that they are spiritual. We need to realize that God doesn’t need any advice, that the Bible, including the church, worship, and so on, doesn’t need to be improved. Most importantly, we need to let God be God and tell us what He wants and how He wants to be worshipped, rather than wanting to do what makes us feel good and important." Source (http://www.beavertonchurchofchrist.net/Authority_Class_7.htm) To me, there are two major problems with this position. 1) First, the Bible does not contain every possible detail about every possible subject for all time. What I mean is this: How fast are we supposed to drive our cars? Oops! There aren't any cars mentioned in the Bible. According to the quotes above then, we cannot assume that it is okay for us to drive cars, since we are not explicitly told that we can in the Bible. Can we brush our teeth? Can we take heart medication? Can we use ink to print Bibles? Do you see the problem? 2) Secondly, there are different kinds of statements in the Bible. When God says, "‘‘A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.'" (John 13:34). This is a direct command with no exceptions allowed. It doesn't say that we must love one another sometimes, or when we feel like it. However, other statements are descriptive and do not exhaust every possibilty. For instance, if the source above followed their own position on arguing from silence then they would have to say that Rom. 10:13 is all that must be done to be saved. However, we both now that Rom. 10:13 doesn't list every single step in the process of salvation. Nothing is said of 'repentance'. Nothing is said of 'confession'. Nothing is said of 'abiding', ect.... So, my position is simple. One cannot forbid something which is not forbidden by Scripture. One cannot mandate something which is not mandated by Scripture. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||