Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70295 | ||
Greetings John! I'm so confused. I don't know who I'm talking to anymore! :-) All me to touch upon your sections in order! 1) Why do I think that God does not determine every action and thought? a) God cannot be the author of sin. b) No one can be held accountable for a forced action. c) Some things do happen that God does not will. d) Some things that God wills do not happen. So, apparently, God does not ordain every single thought and action of man. 2) Back to Adam and Eve. Actually, not all Calvinists would agree with your position here. Those who hold (or at least some) to Supralapsarianism would say that even Adam and Eve did not have free will. You said: "God did ordain that they would sin but did not coerce or force their decision." This is a logical impossibility. How can someone freely do what I predetermined that they would do? Did God know that they would sin? Yes! Did He plan for it? Yes! Did He cause it? No! You also said: "But we know that God's plan is a perfect plan and therefore I, for one, will rest easy and not attempt to answer questions that the Bible has not provided answers for." Yet, there isn't a single verse which says that man does not have free will! :-) 3) Piper: The example of the betrayal of Jesus is an excellent example. However, notice what it does and does not say. Acts 2:23 does not that the people's choices were predetermined, it says that that Jesus was delievered up to them according to the boule and foreknowledge of God. In fact, who handed Jesus over if it was not God. They couldn't take Jesus by force! So, God knew what they would do and allowed it, but He did not determine what their choices or actions would be. He did use their actions and choices for His plan, which He can do because He is sovereign. Where I differ with Piper though is simply this: a) Piper sees God as having differing wills which are in conflict with one another. He wills to save all, but He also wills something else and can't save all. b) I see God has only having one will toward us, but His will is contstrained by His sovereign choice to give us moral freedom. He can't force His will upon, or He violates His own creation. So, the source of conflict is in a sense external (even though our freedom is derived). Piper and I both agree that something God willed did not in fact come to pass. We just differ on why it didn't come to pass. My take on the difference between these two positions is this: a) Piper's view makes God guilty of not doing something that He wills and could do! This doesn't make any sense to me. It would be like me saying that I wanted to go to work today, but I didn't. Why? Was my car broke? Was I sick? Did my alarm fail? No? I wanted to stay home and watch the football game. So, did I really 'want' to go to work? Even in my limited power, I could find a way to both, but God can't? b) Mine says that God willed all to be saved, atoned for all, and offered salvation to all. He has done everything that He can to accomplish His will. Well, I've got to get to bed my friend! Have a Merry Christmas. Hopefully, I'll get your name straight eventually! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70302 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote: 1) Why do I think that God does determine every action and thought? a) God cannot be the author of sin but it is His will to permit it to occur. (God's Permissive will) b) It is true that no one may be held accountable for a forced action, therefore the Sin of Adam and Eve were of their own free will. c) Nothing can occur apart from His eternal plan and without His permitting it to take place. d) Some things that God wills do not happen such as the breaking of His commanments (Which He decreed men to keep, but He permitted to occur, therefore, since He is Almighty God, it was in accordance with His will that men should break them. So, apparently, God does ordain every single thought and action of man. "Known unto God are all his works, from the beginning of the world."–Acts 15:18. The decrees of God are eternal. This our Confession explicitly affirms:–"God, from all eternity, did ordain whatsoever comes to pass." ... what saith the Scripture? It expressly declares, that everything which has happened, and everything which is to happen, was known to God from everlasting. "Known unto God are all his works, from the beginning of the world."–Acts xv. 18. To suppose any of the divine decrees to be made in time, is to suppose the knowledge of the Deity to be limited. If from eternity he knew all things that come to pass, then from eternity he must have ordained them; for if they had not been determined upon, they could not have been foreknown as certain. (Shaw) God is omniscient and all powerful. He is the Creator not the Spectator. He does not stand by helplessly watching His creation malfunction and fall apart. Everything that He has done is perfect. Maybe this fact is not always apparent to our limited abilities, but Scripture affirms it. "It is granted, that some of the decrees of God are conditional, in this sense, that something is supposed to go before the event which is the object of the decree, and that, this order being established, the one will not take place without the other. He decreed, for example, to save Paul and the companions of his voyage to Italy; but he decreed to save them only on condition that the sailors should remain in the ship.–Acts xxvii. He has decreed to save many from the wrath to come; but he has decreed to save them only if they believe in Christ, and turn by him from the error of their ways. But these decrees are conditional only in appearance. They merely state the order in which the events should be accomplished; they establish a connection between the means and the end, but do not leave the means uncertain. When God decreed to save Paul and his companions, he decreed that the sailors should be prevented from leaving the ship; and accordingly gave Paul previous notice of the preservation of every person on board. When he decreed to save those who should believe, he decreed to give them faith; and, accordingly, we are informed, that those whom he predestinated he also calls into the fellowship of his Son.–Rom. viii. 30. That any decree is conditional in the sense" of Arminians, "that it depends upon the will of man, of which he is sovereign master, so that he may will or not will as he pleases, - we deny. "My counsel', says God, "shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.'–Isa. xlvi. 10. But he could not speak so, if his counsel depended upon a condition which might not be performed." Conditional decrees are inconsistent with the infinite wisdom of God, and are in men the effects of weakness. They are also inconsistent with the independence of God, making them to depend upon the free will or agency of his creatures. The accomplishment of them, too, would be altogether uncertain; but the Scripture assures us, that "the counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, and the thoughts of his heart to all generations."–Ps. xxiii. 11. All his purposes are unalterably determined, and their execution infallibly certain. "There are many devices in a man's heart," which he is unable to accomplish, "nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand."–Prov. xix. 21. (Shaw) John |
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3 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70313 | ||
Greetings John! Good Morning my friend! I think that sometimes we are saying almost the same things but using different terms! :-) By 'determined', I don't mean 'allowed'. If I say that God 'determined' my every thought and action, then I'm saying that God said on Dec. 21, 2002, Tim will tell a lie! This is the kind of thing that I don't believe that God did. You seem to be saying the same thing since you say that He only permitted sin. To me, that is different, that would be like saying, "If I create Tim as a free moral agent, then on Dec. 21, 2002, he will tell a lie, but it is in my plan to create him so I'll allow it." Concerning Acts 15:18, I do notice that it says that His works are known from the beginning of the world. It does not say that our thoughts and actions are predetermined, since the reference is to God's works, not our choices. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70328 | ||
Dear Tim, If God has (and we know He has: acts 4) prededestined some things, then, if we wish to say that " He has predestined some but not all", we must show from Scripture that He has not predestined all things. My interpretation of God's Word prevents me from seeing Him as a reactionery being. If all His works are known beforehand, it must be because He foreordained all the means by which His works would produce the fruit He intended they produce. The Great Question is "Why did God create man"? (this is not an attempt to escape, but to shed addditional light on our topic) Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for THY PLEASURE they are and were created. God is pleased, or recieves pleasure when men give Him all the glory due Him as their Lord and King. I fail to see how God is glorified when He is seen as failing to accomplish that which He has planned. Is He helpless in the face of a stubborn creature who refuses to bow before Him, and, is there nothing He can do to persuade this rebel? Then God is not Almighty, for He has failed to accomplish His desire. There is no glory in failure! I know you will say that God merely permitted man to exercise his free-will and that the failure lies with the man and not with God. But even as an a believer in free-will, I could not understand why I believed and why anyone else would not. Faith is a gift. Gifts (in human terms) are given at the will of the giver. Gifts may be refused. On what basis may gifts be refused? A person may dislike or be offended by a inappropriate gift,or, they may not wish to be obliged to the giver. But in the case of the gift of faith, we are speaking of an entirely different kind of gift altogether! Let's say that you present the gospel to an unregenerate person. They listen carefully, but when asked to place their trust in Christ, they politely say that they do not believe what you have told them. In other words they do not believe because they have not recieved the gift of faith! If they had recieved the gift of faith they would have believed. If you have sight you will see, If you have hearing you will hear (these are gifts that God has graciously bestowed on those who posess them). What is true of these two gifts is also true of faith. If you have been given the gift of faith, you will believe. It is impossible to refuse God's physical gifts! Sight, hearing, smelling, taste and touch etc. and yet we do not accuse Him of violating our "free will" by causng us to have them. God is not obliged to give these physical gifts to everyone because if He were they would not be "gifts". How then can anyone say: Man may refuse the gift of faith. How is it possible for man to refuse something, that he is not even aware of, until he expeiences the effect of it upon his being? And then it is too late, for the effect has changed him into a new creature in Christ. It was not his will that determined this miraculous rebirth but the will of God. God Bless You, John |
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5 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70358 | ||
Greetins John! Everytime I think I just about have your position figured out, you confuse me again! :-) Two posts ago, you said that God only permitted the fall. I responded by saying that I agreed, that I make a distinction between ordaining something and permitting something. So, which do you believe? Did God will sin to happen in the sense that He scripted it out and made it happen? Or, did God will sin to happen in the sense that He permitted it to occur? Finally, based on Eph. 2:8-9, is 'faith' the gift of God, or is it the whole process? I ask becase, as you probably have heard before, the pronoun 'it' cannot have as its antecedents either 'faith' or 'grace'. They are both feminine nouns, while the pronoun 'it' is neuter. Thus, the common claim that one cannot repspond in faith unless God gives faith is not supported by the text. (This may be a whole new thread) :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70363 | ||
So, which do you believe? Did God will sin to happen in the sense that He scripted it out and made it happen? Or, did God will sin to happen in the sense that He permitted it to occur? I don't think that He has made us privy to that information. At least I have'nt found the answer in the Bible yet. It may not be a question of "either or". His ways are past finding out, you know. We do know that He created all things and that all He sets out to do He accomplishes. We know He commands knowing His commands will be broken.We also know He operates using a plan, and a perfect plan at that! So He must have planned that Adam and Eve sin but His plan also allowed for their freedom to not sin. Of course there was no doubt in God's omniscient mind. He knew they would sin. Hey! It's His creation afterall. He has mercy on whoever He wants etc. Our time would more profitably spent discovering what He has done and what He wants us to do rather than speculating on why He has done what He has done. Especially when we lack scriptural proof. I'm not a genious ya know!(do not feel compelled to answer that last remark) :-) Ihave Bible Study tonight. Must dash off! John |
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