Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70094 | ||
Dear Aznsmartyic, You began by saying: "I begin with a fact, that God loves us". By "us" I presume you mean "us meaning "christians". If so, I agree with your statement. If you had meant all people universaly, I would have disagreed. I hold the historic protestant view which is that God has ordained all things that occur. I also believe that the only proper way look at this subject is to recognize that all of God's works are holy, just and perfect. To do othewise is to elevate ourselves to the position of judges, with God in the dock being made to defend Himself against His accusers. Another problem to avoid is our propensity towards the false perception that God created this universe for oursakes. He did not! He created it for His pupose of displaying His glory before all to behold. The reason we were created was to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. The dilema you face is faced by all christians who subscribe to the doctrine of God's absolute soveriegnty. Men such as R.C. Sproul confess to having their theology turned upside down and inside out when faced with the clear teaching of Scripture. It can be difficult, especially after being fed a man-centered theology for any length of time. May God bless you as you search His truth for answers that satisfy the soul and mind. John Reformed PS: You may find it profitable to visit http://www.reformed.org/ It represents the teaching of the Reformers who were the fathers of the protestant faith. |
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2 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | mbooker | 70190 | ||
Hi Brother John!! I would like to sneak in here and ask one quick question... then I'm outta here!!! :) You said that you hold the historic protestant view which is that God has ordained all things that occur. Just because 'God has ordained all things that occur', does that also mean that whatever occurs is in line with His will? His good, acceptable and perfect will? If your answer is no, please disregard the remainder of this post. But if it is yes, please indulge me… I have a few more questions :). I will again use Adam and Eve to try and further explain myself. God commanded saying 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.’ Gen 2:16-17. God commanded the man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Am I correct in my belief that it was His will, His perfect will that they not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If your answer is no, please disregard the remainder of this post. But if it is yes… If you have come this far, am I correct to say you agree that: God ordaining something to occur equals whatever occurs is His will, his perfect will. If your answer is no, please disregard the remainder of this post. But if it is yes… Since it was God’s will that the man NOT eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, how could He have ordained man to eat of that tree when it was His will, his perfect will that man NOT eat of that tree? Thanks for your time and I pray that you and yours enjoy remembering the birth of our Savior. Meredith |
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3 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70205 | ||
Hello Meridith! "Just because 'God has ordained all things that occur', does that also mean that whatever occurs is in line with His will? His good, acceptable and perfect will?" Yes! Acts 4:26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. We can also see this principle from the sin that Joseph's brothers commited by selling him into bondage to the Egyptians: Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. "Am I correct in my belief that it was His will, His perfect will that they not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" Yes! God decreed that they must not eat of the fruit. This was His command to them. By eating they broke His command. God certainly could have prevented them, but He chose to permit them to sin. Therefore, we must conclude that God has two ways of willing. He declared His will to them that they must not (His Decretive will) but He pemmited them to break the command (His permissive will). John Piper in his article "Are their two wills in God?" states": "To avoid all misconceptions it should be made clear at the outset that the fact that God wishes or wills that all people should be saved does not necessarily imply that all will respond to the gospel and be saved. We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and both of these things can be spoken of as God's will." For the entire article (which I highly recommend)go to: desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html I don't pretend to know why or how God has done that which He has done. He has only revealed what He has deemed good and fitting for us to understand. The rest is as far above us as the heavens are above the earth. Merry Christmas Meridith!!! Your Brother, John |
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4 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70236 | ||
Greetings John! I asked Joe a question about Adam and Eve the other day and I was wondering if you would like to add your thoughts as well! I understand that Calvinism teaches that depraved man is free to follow his nature, and therefore, even though they can't accept Christ, they are still guilty for their choice. However, what about Adam and Eve? They were not created with a fallen nature. Was the sin of Adam and Eve cause by their will or by God's will? It doesn't seem that one can argue that God only permitted them to sin, because they didn't have a fallen nature which would have forced them to choose to disobey God. Of course, my thought on this is that we have a pefect example of both Sovereignty and human free will. God sovereignly created and set the boundaries, but gave Adam and Eve the ability to obey or disobey. They choose to disobey, hence they were found guilty of sin. I checked out your link! I have seen it before, but I find it very unconvincing. Allow to state why! Can God really will something, which is in His power to accomplish, if He doesn't do it? Arminians would say that God is willing to save all, and that He made provision to save all. So, God both willed and acted upon His will. Piper would have us believe that God willed all men to be saved, but did not will it enough to actually do anything about it, and in fact only saved some. I am always amazed at the length one has to go to redefine the terms in Scripture to uphold Calvinism. 'All' doesn't really mean 'all'. 'World' doesn't really mean 'world'. 'Everyone' doesn't really mean 'everyone'. And, now, Piper would have us believe that 'will' doesn't really mean 'will'. ;-) I was always taught that the more mental gymnastics one has to do to justify a doctrine or interpretation, the more likely one is wrong. His article reminds me of a guy I heard on the radio once in Ohio who tried to argue that Jesus didn't really mean that 'no one knows' when He would return, but that He only meant it would not be general knowledge. Now, I know that you will respond that not all our saved, and I would agree with you on that point. However, notice the difference in the two positions. 1) Piper: God wills all men to be saved, only those He elects can be saved, but contrary to His will He only saves some. 2) Arminianism: God wills all men to be saved, died for all, draws all, but only those who accept the gift of salvation will be saved. Under option one, God acts directly against His own will. Under option two, God acts to make it possible for His will to come to pass, even if not all accept. Well, this is getting long. I'll chat with you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | John Reformed | 70252 | ||
Dear Tim, It is amazing how two reasonably intelligent men can draw two completely different conclusions from the same article. I guess it all depends on one's theological perspective. You asked " what about Adam and Eve? They were not created with a fallen nature. Was the sin of Adam and Eve cause by their will or by God's will?" God had decreed (His Decretive will) they "must not to eat of the fruit..". Of their own free will they chose to disobey the commandment. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. He also permitted it to happen. This may be classified as "God's permissive will". Even though they acted against His will in one sense, they were fulfilling it in another. Take the case of Josephs brothers or Acts 4:27,28. The two wills of God is no more theological mumbo jumbo than is the doctrine of the Trinity. The thing to remember is that everything happens according to God's eternal plan. Don't you agree? John |
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6 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70266 | ||
Greetings Joe! Do I agree that 'everything' happens according to God's eternal plan? No! Do I believe that everything God ordains to happen will happen? Yes! There is a subtle difference. I don't believe that God plans out every decision and action of man. Back to Adam and Eve for a moment, I thought you didn't believe in human free will? Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature prior to the fall, so what was the cause of their decision to sin. If God only permitted their sin, what was the cause of their sin? If everything happens according to God's plan, then wouldn't their very decision itself have to be ordained by God? If God only allowed the decision, then He didn't sovereignly decree it would happen. It seems to me that God allowed their decision, but that He was not the cause of it. Concerning Piper, how could it be true that a sovereign God could will something, but it not come to pass? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Reformer Joe | 70281 | ||
"Do I agree that 'everything' happens according to God's eternal plan? No! Do I believe that everything God ordains to happen will happen? Yes!" I think we see pretty much eye-to-eye on these two statements, if I am understanding you correctly. If by the first one you mean that we do things that God does not want us to do, then I give a resounding, Reformer Joe-style "Amen!" And of course I agree with the second statement. This is why I think that giving a simplistic understanding of God's will is a mistake. Does the Bible say that God always gets His way? Yes...and no. "There is a subtle difference. I don't believe that God plans out every decision and action of man." Neither do I. At the same time, I would say that every human action is already incorporated into God's plan. To say otherwise would be treading into open theism. I think where we are differing is not in saying that God foresees things. Where we differ is in stating what man is capable of after the Fall, and in the degree to which God intervences in human history and individual human lives. I think that it is too simplistic to say that He works around the intentions of human beings, as I see Joseph's brothers and Absolom and the Assyrian invasion and Pharaoh and Satan himself as biblical examples of God taking the intentions of the wicked and not just responding to their actions, but maneuvering their actions so that while they sin of their own accord, God gets his desired outcome. "Back to Adam and Eve for a moment, I thought you didn't believe in human free will?" I take Jonathan Edwards' position that our wills are determined by our natures. We do what we desire most, and our natures are such that we don't ever desire to submit to the Father and embrace Jesus Christ. Adam an Eve didn;t start out with a corruptible sin nature, but obviously is was a nature that was susceptible to corruption. "If God only permitted their sin, what was the cause of their sin?" Their own wills, untainted by a previously existing sin nature, responding to Satan's temptation." "If God only allowed the decision, then He didn't sovereignly decree it would happen." How so? If we think of every action in the universe as directly caused by God, or granted permission for God to occur, or granted with modification, then that still makes God the sovereign cause or gatekeeper of every event in creation. And that's why I am an infralapsarian, incidentally. For the reprobate, God has to do nothing but "give them over" to their natural inclinations, as Paul puts it in Romans 1. One might even call it "spiritual entropy." God only has to do nothing regenerative in a person's life and their trajectory will be toward hell. I agree with you as far as the person who will be in hell is concerned, God gives him his way. That person's will is only constrained by the sociological checks that God has sovereignly established to keep the consequences of a sinful life within His ordained parameters. For the elect, however, I see the new birth as an essential logical precursor to the will. This is the other area in which we differ. You see that grace as only prevenient, enabling the person to be on a neutral ground of sorts to make a decision. I see that grace as making a fundamental change in the very nature of the person, making him into a human being who now wills to embrace the message of the gospel that has accompanied the Spirit's work in his very self. "It seems to me that God allowed their decision, but that He was not the cause of it." I agree. "Concerning Piper, how could it be true that a sovereign God could will something, but it not come to pass?" To be honest, I am not familiar with Piper's view. Different Reformed people approach in different ways the complexity of the Bible's mention of God's will. I think it is biblically supportable to speak of "God's will" in one sense of God creating, causing or permitting something; and "God's will" in another sense of what is in conformity to His law. When I sin, I am in in a violation of God's will, but God permitting me to sin is also according to his will, sovereignly speaking. God detests the act itself, but has already put the act he permits (and whose commission, extent, and effect He governs) in the grand scheme of His sovereign plan. --Joe! |
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8 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70293 | ||
Greetings Joe! You and I would both soundly reject Open Theism! I actually set under the teaching of one of it's main proponents in college - Dr. William Hasker. He was a nice man, but we went round and round on his views of God. :-) Concerning Piper, if you check out the link that John provided, you will find that Piper basically believes that God does will all to be saved, but He will something else more, so He doesn't save all. Like you, I do believe that God has a determinative and a permissive will. But, I see the permissive will as a direct outcome of giving us free will. He must allow us the option of even disobeying. However, I don't see man' will as being absolute. So, God can prevent someone from doing what they would like to do because He is sovereign, not them! :-) Well, I've got to get to bed! Merry Christmas my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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