Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | beva | 70114 | ||
EdB, you said, "That is not the only historic Protestant view. There is another that God gave man free will and allowed him choice. Just as he did with Adam and Eve he does with us all". Does Scripture not say otherwise? Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." EdB, this is one of many verses that clearly state that God decreed of old, some men to be damned for eternity. Now don't get angry at me, I'm just quoting Scripture:-) Exodus 4:21-23 "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." Isn't it obvious that it was God who caused Pharaoh's heart to be hardened? Not Pharaoh himself. And again, in Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." I know this upsets many people, but biblically, some are indeed "fitted to destruction." Why? So God can show His love for the elect. Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses". Again, it was God who "hardened their hearts". Psalm 105:25 "He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtly with his servants." Who turned their heart? --God. Proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD". Again, from who? The LORD, not man. Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being…" In Him. Not in us. He turns our hearts: Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Proverbs 20:24 "Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" We can't understand our own way EdB! Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps". And thank God for that brother EDB! Trust only in Him! Sometimes, God even stops good counsel when it serves His purpose: 2 Samuel 17:14 "And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom". Isaiah 63:17 "O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" Why EdB? Why does God sometimes harden people's hearts? Because He is God and He is sovereign and He makes all things work for His glory. I could go on and on and on, but I fear I've taken up to much room already! And my guess is - we might as well debate how many angels could fit on the head of a pin:-) |
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2 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70153 | ||
Greetings John! Good evening my friend! Let's look a little more closely at Jude 4, shall we? The NIV rendering of this verse says: " For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." The word translateds as 'written about' is 'prographo'. It is used four times in the New Testament: Rom. 15:4, Gal. 3:1, Eph. 3:3, and Jude 4. The problem is that the word does not mean what you have indicated in your previous post. The verse does not say that 'certain men were predestined to condementation'. Rather, it says that the judgement of such men was written about long ago or before. There is nothing in the word which indicates that specific individuals were selected out for condemnation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | beva | 70186 | ||
Thank you brother for the insight, however, my name is not John:-) Who is this John? He must be quite brilliant! | ||||||
4 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70192 | ||
Greetings Beva! I'm sorry my friend! I could have sworn that John wrote the post to which I was responding! :-) Can I blame it on old age? :-) Anyway, how would you respond to my point about Jude 4 my new friend? Now that I have your name correct! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | beva | 70204 | ||
I perceive my new friend that you are a Greek scholar. Unfortunately I am not. Therefore, to engage you in this most interesting discussion will require that I first go and find 5 smooth stones...(tee-hee) Please note: I am NOT calling you a Philistine! I am saying that without research on the Greek language I would be outmatched! I assume that I will be able to find experts in the Greek language who are of the "Calvinist persuasion" who will somehow manage to interpret this verse as it was originally interpreted in the KJV. ...And then, we would be right back where we started involved in an interesting yet useless debate wouldn't we? But since I did post the verse, and you have so graciously responded, I will conduct the research and get back to you with my results. --Beva |
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6 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70207 | ||
Greetings Beva! Unfortunately, I'm not as tall as Golith! :-) Though versed in Greek, I would not call myself a scholar! ;-) Even if one does not know Greek, many of these questions can be answered by simply using Strongs and Vines. If you check out the four verses I referenced (the only places where this word appears) and if you check out the meaning of the compound word (before - written), it is clear that the word refers to something which had been written previously. There isn't anything of a 'determinitive' nature to the word. If the word had been 'predestined' for instance, then we might have a different story! p.s. - I'll go get my helmet ready! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | beva | 70213 | ||
Sheath you sword my brother:-). I will check the translations of the other verses you listed. I have a Young's Concordance here, and will check Strongs and Vines online. In the meantime, look at the differing interpretations in these translations. Please note the KJV, Young's Literal Translation and the Noah Webster translation. Pay particular attention to the word "pre-destined" in the Weymouth New Testament Latin Vulgate 1:4 subintroierunt enim quidam homines qui olim praescripti sunt in hoc iudicium impii Dei nostri gratiam transferentes in luxuriam et solum Dominatorem et Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum negantes King James Version 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. American Standard Version 1:4 For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Bible in Basic English 1:4 For certain men have come among you secretly, marked out before in the holy Writings for this evil fate, men without the fear of God, turning his grace into an unclean thing, and false to our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Darby's English Translation 1:4 For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly persons, turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. Douay Rheims 1:4 For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Noah Webster Bible 1:4 For certain men have crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Weymouth New Testament 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed--men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation--ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord. World English Bible 1:4 For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ. Young's Literal Translation 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying, |
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8 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70222 | ||
Greetings Beva! I find it interesting that several translations use the term 'predestined' or 'ordained', sine not a single Greek source I counslted lists any sense of 'predetermination' to the word. Here is the entry from short Kittel's: ************************************** prographo 1. Eph. 3:3: ?As I have written above,? a common use (e.g., when referring to a heading). 2. Rom. 15:4. ?What was written previously, in earlier times. 3. Gal. 3:1. The reference here may be a. to public proclamation, e.g., on placards, or b. to vivid depiction. The latter is less likely both because there is no attestation for this sense and a heart-rending description of the cross is less in keeping with apostolic preaching than its public promulgation. 4. Jude 4. The idea here is that of public proscription; the false teachers have been long since listed for condemnation. ******************************************* I also noticed that several translation even added words such as 'ancient writtings' and 'holy writtings'. None of these words are present in the text at all. Have a great day! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | beva | 70248 | ||
Greetings again my brother! I have considered Jude 1:4 in light of the other verses you listed and I fear that my understanding of the verse remains the same. How is it that this happens? I confess that I am at a loss. How can two brothers get such different meaning from the same verse? Perhaps it is because we both read Scripture with preconceived notions. And if that is true... I am certain we could have some very interesting discussions, but neither of us would change our view. Therefore, shall we continue? To what end? I do not want to foster division or dissension. Admittedly, in light of some other disturbing posts I have read I now regret stepping into this discussion! But, at the same time, I am extremely curious as to how you would interpret certain other verses of Scripture. Then again, you may be curious as to how I would respond to specific "proof texts". Alas, what shall we do? Your intrigued friend, --Beva |
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10 | Is God somehow responsible? | Rom 1:20 | Morant61 | 70265 | ||
Greetings Beva! Feel free to contribute anytime! :-) I would be curious as to what in the other three verses makes you feel that this word has any connotation of pre-ordination. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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