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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How do I make sense of the context? | Acts 8:13 | Reformer Joe | 69876 | ||
"I checked out Piper's article on prayer and providence, but I'm not convinced! :-)" I am truly stunned... ;) "All he does is push the question back one more level by saying that the prayer may be the providential cause of the answer to prayer. Yet, if the prayer itself is now providential, why am I commanded to pray." The fact that prayer is providential does not mean that I am not the one volitionally doing the praying. "If I fail to pray, it is because God ordained that I would not. If I do pray, it is because God ordained that I would." This is true. But it does not logically follow that God prevented me from praying. His decree also includes allowing my sin to occur for His eternal purpose as well. And acts relating to our sanctification are synergistic; God works it in us and we do exercise our will in obeying Him at the same time, to "work out our salvation." "So, there really isn't any need for a command to pray. ;-)" Sure there is. God reveals his will, and his sanctifying grace works in the mind and heart of the believer so that he recognizes it as God's will. One cannot be obedient to God if there are no commands to obey. And, again, God decreeing prayer does not mean that God does the praying instead of us. "This has always been the largest drawback to saying that every human event and decision is providential. Warnings in Scripture mean nothing since I have no other choice than what God ordains. Commands mean nothing since I can only choose to do what God ordains anyway. :-)" A couple of points: 1. God's decree has both determinative and permissive aspects to it. Neither of us thinks that humans are robots or puppets. 2. What God ordains in most cases is a mystery until it has already occurred in time and space. If I choose not to pray, I can say at the same time that God decreed that my praying would not occur and that I am freely disobeying God; and furthermore, God would have already taken the foreseen disobedience into account in his foreordaining whatsoever comes to pass. My favorite illustration of God's decree and man's sin coming into play is the judgment of God upon David for adultery and murder. He very specifically states His plan through the prophet Nathan: "'Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'" --2 Samuel 12:10-12 Now, answer me these questions: 1. Is the coming sin Absalom's or God's? In other words, does God make Absalom sin? 2. Did God specifically say what was going to occur, and did he place it in the context of an effect to the cause of David's sin? There is not a logical cause-and-effect here in the natural, observable realm (IOW, it is not like the IV drug user whose AIDS is physiologically the result of the sin; the act of David marrying Bathsheba did not set off a chain of events in Absalom's life that drove him to avenge the marriage). However, God says that what specifically will happen IS connected to what David has done. 3. How do you account for the fact that God says both that David's "neighbor" would commit these atrocities, and at the same time declares that "I will raise up evil" and "I will do this thing"? God's decree works (in part) through omniscient foresight and manipulation of the freely sinning creation and the choice to obey among his saints. And I hold that prayer falls under this umbrella as well. --Joe! |
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2 | How do I make sense of the context? | Acts 8:13 | Morant61 | 69912 | ||
Greetings Joe! This is a very broad topic! :-) Let me quote you for a moment! " 2. What God ordains in most cases is a mystery until it has already occurred in time and space. If I choose not to pray, I can say at the same time that God decreed that my praying would not occur and that I am freely disobeying God; and furthermore, God would have already taken the foreseen disobedience into account in his foreordaining whatsoever comes to pass." Here is where we differ on our definition of 'free'. If God has ordained that I would not pray, then how can I 'freely' disobey? I don't believe that Scripture teaches that every decision or act of man is ordained. There are some things which are essential to God's plan, like the death of Christ, which are ordained, but not every act or decision. But, I can never accept any definition of free which includes 'ordained'. But, it is interesting that the last line of your quote sounds like the arugment that Arminians used to make about Rom. 8:29! :-) On to your example! I like this one! It isn't eay no matter which perspective one aprroaches it from! :) I wouldn't not be willing to say that God caused sin. We know from James that this is not possible. I know that Hebrews did not distinguish between causing and permitting. So, my off the cuff answer would be that God allowed these things to happen as a consequence of David's sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | How do I make sense of the context? | Acts 8:13 | Reformer Joe | 69929 | ||
"Here is where we differ on our definition of 'free'. If God has ordained that I would not pray, then how can I 'freely' disobey?" Let me quote the Puritan Thomas Vincent on that: "God's general decrees are his eternal purpose, whereby he hath fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass; not only the beaing of all creatures which he doth make, but also their motions and actions; not only good actions, which he doth effect, but also the permission of all evil actions." So God's decree, according to this view, does indeed include a permissive quality as well as a quality of direct intervention. Satan is not made to act in this world, but God allows him to act within the parameters that He has estblished, and ultimately uses Satan's evil for his glory. We see all throughout Scripture where the sins of men and the intentions of God go hand-in-hand. Joseph tells his brothers in Genesis 50:20 that what they meant for evil, God MEANT for good. He doesn't say that God simply "made lemonade out of lemons," but rather intended for Joseph to be sold into slavery and carted off to a foreign land and be framed and spend seven years in prison. Now did God cause the sin? No, that would be going to far, as you have stated. However, saying that He intended and decreed that the sin would happen is a different thing. Another interesting thing that I find is that, to me, God seems to direct the sinful hearts of men in almost imperceptible ways. For example, Joseph's brothers originally intend to kill him, but suddenly Reuben has an alternate plan (Genesis 37:21 ff.). The same thing is true in the case of Absalom. Absalom, already looking to sin, fulfills God's decree on the advice of another human being (2 Samuel 16:20-21). The sin is Absalom's (he wasn't a robot); the specific decree was God's, who said without a doubt that this thing GOD would do as a response to David's sin. We see this all throughout Scripture, like the pagan Assyrians (God-haters) being raised up as a tool for God's judgment against Israel, and then being destroyed themselves, according to God's purpose and plan, for their own arrogance. We see Paul commenting in Romans 9:17, pointing back to the Torah's comment that Pharaoh was raised up by God for the express purpose of demonstrate God's power in the destruction of his reign. Over and over again we see the truth that "The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps." --Proverbs 16:9 And most clearly, as you have stated, in the murder of Jesus: "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."--Acts 4:27-28 "There are some things which are essential to God's plan, like the death of Christ, which are ordained, but not every act or decision. But, I can never accept any definition of free which includes 'ordained'." I am not sure I am following you, here. Let's look at the death of Christ. You yourself say that God ordained it to happen. Does that mean that the actions of the men who put him to death were not free? Was Judas free to betray or not to betray? Was Pilate free to wash his hands or not wash his hands? Assuming that you hold the answer to be "yes," how can you accept the simultaneous decree of God and the free actions of sinful men in this case but not in most of the others? --Joe! |
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4 | How do I make sense of the context? | Acts 8:13 | Morant61 | 69975 | ||
Greetings Joe! I want to apologize my friend! Your posts are always so well thought out, and over the last few days I have been too busy to respond in a manner worthy of them! :-) Even in areas which we disagree, I hold you in the highest regard. Have I buttered you up enough yet? :-) Allow me to explain my understanding of sovereignty and free will, especially as it relates to Acts 2:23. God is the only One who has absolute free will. He has the power, opportunity, and ability to do whatever He chooses to do - except for those things which would violate His nature. However, His sovereignty and our free will our not mutually exclusive. He can (and did) create us to be free moral agents. Just as in the incarnation, God limited Himself, so in creation of man He allowed us the ability to make choices. Now, our freedom is not absolute. As much as I would like to be a star NBA player, I cannot. I do not have the ability, nor the opprotunity. :-) I am not a believer in an absolute free will for man. We are limited in the choices we can make, but the choices that we do make our free. The best illustration I have ever seen is that of A. W. Tozer. He uses the analogy of an ocean liner. The ocean liner is God's ordained purposes. It will go where He chooses, not where we choose. But, within the confines of that ocean liner, we can make many free choices. We can smim. We can sleep. We can eat, ect.... How does this relate to Acts 2:23. I believe that God ordains certain things, like the means of salvation. We have no choice in this regard. We cannot say, "I don't like your plan of salvation, so I want a different one." But, God does not ordain our actions or choices. Notice that in Acts 2:23 that it was not their choices which were ordained, but the very act of handing Jesus over to them. This also makes sense of the Mt. 23:37 passage. God wanted to do something, but He left Jerusalem with a choice. They choose not to respond to God's offer, thus God did not do what He was willing to do. Where I differ with the definition you provided at the beginning of your post is that it only allows evil actions to be free, while every good action is effected by God. I hope this explains my position a little better! :-) Your Brother in Christ, |
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