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NASB | Romans 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 7:19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. |
Subject: Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus |
Bible Note: Greetings Jeff! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! :-) Whether we eventually end up agreeing on our understanding or not, you have addressed the Scriptures! This is what Bible study is all about my friend. Allow me to touch upon your points. 1) You wrote: "I might rephrase the question to say, what does Paul say about Paul. My best answer: 'I am carnal' (KJV) 'I am of the flesh' (ESV). And what does Paul say regarding the flesh? It is 'sold under sin'. " From my perspective, this was your weakest point in the post (I don't mean this in a bad sense). What I mean is that the text, while mentioning the adjective 'fleshy', does not say that the flesh is 'sold as a slave to sin'. It says that 'I am sold as a slave to sin'. Thus, I would argue that my point still stands. But, I thought that your other points were much stronger, so allow me to address them. In the other parts of Rom. 7:14-25, there is a clear reference to the flesh or the members of his body. However, there are several reasons why I still see Paul as describing himself prior to his conversion, and not as a believer. 1) First of all, arguing that Paul is describing his fleshy nature as opposed to himself still not address the issue of defeat in this passage. Let's assume that you are correct. Paul still does not do what he wants to do. He still does what He does not want to do. He doesn't say that this only occurs occasionly. Rather, He would be describing himself as a slave or a prisoner to his fleshy nature. So, we would still have the same problem in that there is no victory over sin. 2) Secondly, I would say that this view still does not adequately deal with chapter 8. There is a change that occurs in the state of Paul in chapter 8. There is the 'but now' that must be addressed. The law could not set him free from the law of sin and death, but Christ did. 3) Finally, we still must deal with Rom. 8:9. If Paul is talking about himself as a Christian who still has to struggle with his flesh, how does one explain his comment in Rom. 8:9. In Rom. 7, he is a slave to his flesh (in your view - is this a correct statement?), but in Rom. 8:9 Paul says, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. " The NIV translates 'flesh' as 'sinful nature' throughout this section of Romans. So, in chapter 7, the flesh rules, but in chapter 8, the flesh does not rule. So, in conclusion, I still see the same problems, even if we see Rom. 7:14-25 as a description of Paul's struggle with the flesh as I see if we view it as a description of Paul himself. What do you think my friend? p.s. - Again, whether we agree or not, I appreciate that you both responded to Scripture with Scripture and interacted with my position my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |