Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169415 | ||
Dear Doc, God bless you for your honesty and humility. I wonder why the translators have not even added a footnote explaing why we should NOT pay any attention to the tense used in 14-25? I have always assumed that their work was aimed at presenting a translation that conveyed the actual intent of the writer(I apologize for the irony).(smile) Brother John |
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2 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169434 | ||
Greetings John! I hope you aren't suggesting that I am advocating 'ignoring' the tense of Rom. 7:14-25. :-) My point has been that the historical present is a legitimate use of the present tense in both English and Greek. Allow me to provide a couple of examples. 1) Mt. 26:40 - "And He *came to the disciples and *found them sleeping, and *said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?" Came is a present tense verb. Found is a present tense verb. Sleeping is a present tense verb. Said is a present tense verb. Yet, they are all translated as past tense. 2) Mt. 3:1 - "Now in those days John the Baptist *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying" Came is a present tense verb. There are many other examples, but these should suffice to demonstrate that I am not simply making this up. :-) Understanding this passage as an example of an historical present is not some far out theory, nor does it do violence to the grammar of Greek, or for that matter to the English, since English also uses an historical present at times. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169436 | ||
Hi Tim, "Usage and Genre The historical present occurs mostly in less educated writers as a function of colloquial, vivid speech. More literary authors, as well as those who aspire to a distanced historical reporting, tend to avoid it. John has it 162 times, Mark 151 times. Matthew has 93 at most, while Luke has a mere 11, mostly found in the parables of Jesus (with another 13 in Acts). The historical present is preeminently the storyteller’s tool and as such occurs exclusively (or almost exclusively) in narrative literature." ( http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/2002-04/10013.html) Would it be safe to say (given that Paul was very well educated and that he was not relating a story) that it would be highly unusual for him to employ this particular literary device? John |
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4 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169437 | ||
Greetings John! So, when God inspired John to use it 162 times (according to your source), and Mark 151 times, and Matthew approx. 93 times, and Luke 11 times, was He being less educated? ;-) I would be very hesitant to make that sort of a value judgement on God's Word. As for Paul's account in Rom. 7, isn't that a narrative section? You are arguing that Paul is describing himself as a believer struggling with slavery to sin, while I am arguing that Paul is describing himself prior to becoming a believer. Either way, the section is narrative and biographical. :-) Anyway, I think I have stated my points quite clearly. So, I will leave this topic for now (unless something new comes up in the future). Thanks for the discussion my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | DocTrinsograce | 169438 | ||
Oh... come on... "Narrative?" These kinds of "arguments" almost make me want to leap as quickly as possible to other side! |
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6 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169440 | ||
Greetings Doc! What is a narrative? Webster says, "something that is narrated : STORY" The definition of story is: "an account of incidents or events b : a statement regarding the facts pertinent to a situation in question" Now, does Paul's description of himself fit this definition? Consider Paul's statements in Rom. 7:9-10: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." Is he describing a sequence of events or not? When Paul talks about doing what he does not want to do, is he describing actual events? My understanding is that when someone describes either his current state or his past state, that description would be a narration. Can you show me where I am mistaken in this my friend? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169451 | ||
Dear Tim, the mere fact that one uses personal experience to illustrate their teaching does not qualify it as being a story or a narrative. Chapter 7 is clearly didatic in nature. Witness Doc's reaction! He sees you stretching. I do as well. The message Paul is fervently seeking to get through our thick skulls is that the Law is not the problem. The problem is indwelling sin. To give his teaching the greatest force he bares his own struggle for all to see. He does what most of us would be loath to do...he shows us his own inability to keep God's Law. The cornererstone of Romans is grace. In my opinion,if we miss that, we will miss the meaning chapt 7 in particular and the entire book in general. Your friend, John |
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