Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169393 | ||
Dear Tim, In answer to your Q:How can one be a 'slave to sin' and 'no longer a slave to sin' at the same time?...my reply is that it is not possible be a slave and not a slave at the same time. Paul answers this dilemna saying that " So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (Rom 7:17). Frankly Tim, your arguement rests not on the text itself, but on your contention that we read it in the light of the "Historic Present". If one reads the text based upon the rules governing the use of tenses in the englsh language, one cannot do other than conclude that Paul in 13-25 is writing of present Paul. God bless, John |
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2 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169399 | ||
Greetings John! Let me see if I have this straight my friend. We are no longer slaves to sin, but the sin within us still does whatever it wants, whenever it wants! Is this your contention? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169400 | ||
Their not my words Tim, but Paul's. What do you make of them? John |
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4 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169403 | ||
Greetings John! Personally, I would say that you have still not addressed the question because Paul also says in Rom. 7:14 that 'I am a slave to sin', yet in Rom. 6:6 he says that we are no longer slaves to sin. Both are in the present tense, but both cannot be true at the same time. The only way that it makes sense textually is if Rom. 7 describes someone prior to Christ. By the way, you still seem to make light of the historical present. ;-) Do we not also have an historical present in English as well? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169407 | ||
Hi Tim, the only ans. I can give you at this time is that Paul is saying that we are not slaves because we are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin's bondage. Therefore, in a spiritual sense the law does not apply to us. This does not mean that we do not sin against our own best intentions. My sin greives me to the point of wretchedness. At times I feel like a slave and I cry out to Lord asking for His forgiveness, and, for the grace I neeed to overcome the power of sin that is in my fleshy nature. Most of the time the answer I recieve is that "My grace is sufficient for you." To pursue lawkeeping as the means to gain favor with God is to make the same mistake that Caine made when he offered up a sacrifce that God had not decreed. The righteous will live by faith. In this way God insures that I never will be in a position of claiming any of the glory that rightfully belongs to Christ Jesus, my Saviour; my Redeemer; my Righteousness. John |
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6 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | Morant61 | 169411 | ||
Greetings John! You wrote: "the only ans. I can give you at this time is that Paul is saying that we are not slaves because we are to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin's bondage." I am not sure if I am following you my friend. Are you saying: a) That we really are slaves to sin, but are not to consider our selveselves slaves to sin. or b) That we aren't slaves to sin if we don't think that we are slaves to sin? By the way, you wrote: "To pursue lawkeeping as the means to gain favor with God is to make the same mistake that Caine made when he offered up a sacrifce that God had not decreed. The righteous will live by faith. In this way God insures that I never will be in a position of claiming any of the glory that rightfully belongs to Christ Jesus, my Saviour; my Redeemer; my Righteousness." Allow me to make clear that I am not advocating lawkeeping as a means to gain favor with God. Nor, am I claiming any glory on my own part. The only reason I am no longer a slave to sin is because of what Christ did for me on the cross. Rom. 8:1-4 makes this perfectly clear: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." I am only able to live according to the Spirit because of Christ. But, Rom. 8:9 also makes it clear that I cannot be controlled by the flesh if the Spirit of God lives in me: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." This is why I think this topic is such an important study. How can we teach people that we are still slaves to sin when Scripture clearly says that if the flesh cannot control me if the Spirit of God lives in me? The flesh is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:8) and will die (8:13). Instead, we are to live by the Spirit and we will not gratify the desires of the flesh (Gal. 5:16). Notice that the text does not say, 'Might not', or 'Sometimes will not'. It says, 'will not'! :-) Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. Hopefully these posts will prompt further study of this issue on all of our parts. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Paul's evil practices Pre or PostJesus | Rom 7:19 | hobbs | 169421 | ||
Hi Tim, The following is from a sermon by John Piper. I prefer to post my personal views but Piper has said what I would have said had I his gifts. To answer this question I need to tell you where I stand on who this divided man is. Remember from last week, some say Romans 7:14-25 is Paul's description of his experience before he was a Christian; and some say that it is his description of his experience as a Christian. Well, I think the second position is right. Paul is speaking about himself here as a Christian. Let me say immediately that I do not mean we should settle in and coast with worldly living and a defeatist mentality. We should not make peace with our sin; we should make war on our sin. Defeat is not the only, or the even the main, experience of the Christian life. But it is part of it. I agree with J. I. Packer who wrote an article on this passage two years ago to defend the view that I am taking here. He said Paul is not telling us that the life of the "wretched man" is as bad as it could be, only that it is not as good as it should be, and that because the man delights in the law and longs to keep it perfectly his continued inability to do so troubles him acutely. . . . The "wretched man" is Paul himself, spontaneously voicing his distress at not being a better Christian than he is, and all we know of Paul personally fits in with this supposition. So I think what Paul is saying is not that Christians live in continual defeat, but that no Christian lives in continual victory over sin. And in those moments and times when we fail to triumph over sin, Romans 7:14-25 is the normal way a healthy Christian should respond. He should say, · I love the Law of God. Verse 22: "I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man." · I hate what I just did. Verse 15: "I am doing the very thing I hate." · Oh the wretchedness I feel in these times! I long for deliverance from this body that constantly threatens to kill me, and that I have to mortify day after day. Verse 24: "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (see Romans 6:6; 8:10, 13). Nobody should want to live this way. Or settle to live this way. That's not the point. The point is, when you do live this way, this is the Christian response. No lying. No hypocrisy. No posing. No vaunted perfectionism. Lord, deliver us from a church like that - with its pasted smiles, and chipper superficiality, and blindness to our own failures, and consequent quickness to judge others. God give us the honesty and candor and humility of the apostle Paul. So that is the view I want to defend. Romans 7:14-25 is part of Christian experience - not ideal, but real. You may read His seron in it's entirety at: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/01/060301.html By the way, Piper does not think that regenerate Paul or unregenerate Paul affects the meessage one way or the other. I'm not as certain as he is and it is something I'll pray about. Thanks Tim, John |
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