Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53464 | ||
You wrote: "Prior to this, as I believe it, Jews and Gentiles were following the Torah." Well, you have failed to show that conclusively. What evidence are you putting forth to demonstrate the validity of that claim? You wrote, in reference to Acts 15: "The question about whether they were to put the yoke of burden on them which they themselves could not keep is referring to the oral torah, additional commands which are not found in the Bible." That doesn't make sense for a number of reasons. First of all, Jesus during his ministry made it clear that the mishna and other oral traditions were the commandments of men and not those of YHWH. Therefore, the issue of an aprocryphal "oral Torah" wouldn't have been an issue for either Jewish nor Gentile Christians. Secondly, Acts 15:5 makes it clear that it was the Law of MOSES that was the issue, not any additional teachings. Verse 9 and 11 juxtapose the grace of God and the faith of the Gentiles with the proposition of the Pharisees in verse 5. There is absolutely no evidence that any extra-biblical commands were the ones in question. You wrote: "These Gentiles are babys and are told 4 things they should start doing (these were probably big problems in the communities they came from). Then it says that Moses is taught in the synagogues each Shabbat. It was understood that they would learn more about the Moses, and the Torah at the Shabbat services." No, I think you have this wrong. Again, we have no indication that the imposition of the directives from Jerusalem is "Torah 101" to be followed by successive stages. This would not be in keeping with God's requirements for Jews to keep the entire Law. And notice that these command, which you correctly state as being elements of the Pentateuch, are referred to as a BURDEN here, just as in the preceding verses. And what James is saying here is that these impositions are not for the sake of purification, but rather because there is a Jewish presence in the larger cities from ages past. There is no indication that the Gentiles participated in the synagogue services, only that they existed where Gentile Christians were. And that is the reason the Council of Jerusalem directed the Gentile Christians as it did. You wrote: "To many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an intity to itself." Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified. You wrote: "Abraham knew the Torah (Gen 26:5 where the word laws is actually the Hebrew word Torah)" I am aware that "Torah" means "law." However, it does not always mean "THE Law" (i.e. the Law given through Moses). You are arguing from the conclusion you have already made, rather than demonstrating that your conclusion is a valid one. You wrote: "To be honest, I think the trinity limits God, I do confine him to three but to many more." If you allow "many more," than you do not confine Him to three. It is the same word for breath and Spirit in Greek as well. You speak of the Holy Spirit as merely a manifestation of God, while the Scriptures attribute much more. Is Jesus just a "manifestation" of God, or is He God? What other "manifestations" would you include in this "polyinity"? --Joe! |
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2 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53468 | ||
continued from above...... Ultimately, I don’t believe that anyone from “the nations”, or any biological Jew, for that matter, is going to be on the scene except for those who enthusiastically choose Torah as in Isa 2:3. So, to respond to your statement, “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel.” It can’t be demonstrated for it was never so, Torah never had any implications for anyone outside of the LORD’s covenants……neither Old nor New..…except that hopefully others of the nations (that’s us) would choose to “bind themselves to the LORD” by choosing to come under His covenant. (again, see Isa 56:6). If I may insert a side bar here for Johnny……he referred to Torah as “your Torah” when addressing Simchat……in one respect it is Simchat’s Torah in that he has chosen Torah, it is in his mind and heart…….but I don’t think that was what Johnny meant. Torah is “thus saith the LORD”…….it is His Torah and the word of the LORD stands forever. What did Y’shua have to say to satan? “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Mt 4:4). Where do we find “every word that comes from the mouth of God” that man is to “live on”? Isn’t He saying, to paraphrase, “Man lives on Torah alone”? Is it a coincidence that Messiah Y’shua affirms the Torah in satan’s face? “Every word that comes from the mouth of God” is Torah, which is translated as “nomos/law” in the NT. The one who comes against Y’shua, the anti-messiah, satan’s henchman, is referred to as “anomos” (without “nomos”/lawless) in II Th 2:8. There you have it……The Messiah Y’shua is pro-Torah, the anti-messiah is anti-Torah……..Y’shua is the master of Truth, the anti-messiah is the master of deceit through lies. If Y’shua would come back today and preach, “Man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God…..and that’s the Torah” he would be dismissed as the “anti-christ” by most Christians, because that statement does not line up with their theology. If one sees Jesus as having abolished the “nomos”…….that makes Jesus “anomos”. An ominous conclusion. The defense rests…… Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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3 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53483 | ||
Thanks for your input, Bub. However, I don't think you understood my point. God's moral commands are indeed eternal, but you failed to address my arguments regarding Acts 15, Galatians, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and Hebrews, all which apparently point out that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspcects of the Torah have been consummated in Yeshua. What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today? | ||||||
4 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53627 | ||
Dear Joe…… I can’t find the posting to which you responding, I apologize…..can you give me the date and time etc. so I can find it? Re your comment: “You failed to address my arguments regarding Acts 15, Galatians, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and Hebrews, all which apparently point out that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Torah have been consummated in Yeshua.” I can still can address the statement……you use the word “apparently”……can you give me a “definitely”? The sacrificial aspects being over, I can buy……there’s no physical temple, ergo there can be no physical sacrifices……yet Paul was still making sacrifices after the resurrection while the temple was still standing. What do you mean by “ceremonial” aspects? The Levitical services? Again, with no temple the Levites are out of a job. Re your comment: “What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today?” That’s easy……..I go to Mt 5:18-19, Y’shua said it….that settles it. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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5 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | John Reformed | 53716 | ||
Dear Bub, You responded to Joe by saying: Re your comment: “What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today?” That’s easy……..I go to Mt 5:18-19, Y’shua said it….that settles it. All Scipture is God breathed. It is "The Word". Jesus is "The Word". Galatians is as much the teaching of Christ as His words printed in red in many Bibles. You seem to infer that the "direct" quotations of Christ have more authority than any other passages in the Bible. Please explain your response. John |
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6 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | In the Andes | 53720 | ||
Hey, If Paul is wrong he shouldn't be in the Bible. And if what He says contradicts Jesus then the entire Bible is wrong. So, Jesus saying it...that settles it doesn't fit too well with Bible interp. |
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