Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53382 | ||
Greetings, once more. I am in the middle of leading a missions/evangelism week for 85 teens, so I am not able to follow this interesting discussion as much as I would like. I will respond to a couple of things just in passing. You wrote: "I find it interesting that Christians have such a wide range of views when it comes to the Torah, some say they are still in effect while others say they are not." Well, I think it comes down to the fine distinctions that some people can;t/won;t make. While I do hold that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law have found their fulfillment in Chirst (as well as Him fulfilling the moral requiremenets in our stead), I still have not found one Christian who denies the moral law's use can answer this question: "What can we do to please God that is not contained in the moral law of God?" The answer is, of course, nothing. God shows us how to please Him in the law, and while this is not a basis of our justification, the moral aspects of the law are important for our sanctification (Psalms 19 and 119). One other thing I wanted your input on: you cited Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount and his comments regarding the law. How do you think that is reconciled with Acts 15, in which the apostles did not require the Gentile converts to live as Jews? And what do you do with the book of Galatians, which is Paul's longest treatment of how the Judaizers are wrong to try and convince the Gentile converts to be circumcized and become subject to the covenant at Sinai? And the book of Hebrews, which seems to say that the Mosaic Covenant has served its purpose (namely, to prefigure the Messiah)? And can't the word "Torah" also refer to general moral instruction and not specifically the Pentateuch? Oh, one more. :) Regarding the Trinity, according to you, how does the Kabbalah's notion of the Trinity differ from that of the Nicene and Athanasians Creeds? Thanks again! --Joe! |
||||||
2 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Simchat Torah | 53392 | ||
Shalom Joe; While most Christians see the moral laws of God as good and for them today, they draw the line at anything that is “jewish”. This is actually a result of the Bar Kockba revolt of 135 AD. Prior to this, as I believe it, Jews and Gentiles were following the Torah. When the Romans began killing the Jews because of the revolt, the Gentiles said, we are not Jewish and to show it stopped doing anything “Jewish”. These included the Shabbat, feasts and Kashrut (dietary laws). This resulted in the Christians observances of Sunday, Christian feasts such as Christmas and an elimination of Kashrut and began eating swine. You said; How do you think that is reconciled with Acts 15, in which the apostles did not require the Gentile converts to live as Jews The basic question in Acts 15 is are they to convert and be circumcised or not, they said no, they do not need to covert. The question about whether they were to put the yoke of burden on them which they themselves could not keep is referring to the oral torah, additional commands which are not found in the Bible. If you will notice that there descision included 4 things from the Torah. Torah is like a teaching of a parent, you do not teach a two year old how to clean the house, you start with little things and build on that. These Gentiles are babys and are told 4 things they should start doing (these were probably big problems in the communities they came from). Then it says that Moses is taught in the synagogues each Shabbat. It was understood that they would learn more about the Moses, and the Torah at the Shabbat services. You said; And what do you do with the book of Galatians, which is Paul's longest treatment of how the Judaizers are wrong to try and convince the Gentile converts to be circumcized and become subject to the covenant at Sinai? The problem that Paul was facing was that some Jews were still trying to live by the covenant that was given at Sinai which has ended. He is trying to explain to them that the covenant is over and that they do not follow the Torah according to the covenant at Sinai, but according to the new covenant. To many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an intity to itself. The covenant at Sinai did incorporate the Torah but made it a binding contract rather than a teaching which is its original intent. You said; And the book of Hebrews, which seems to say that the Mosaic Covenant has served its purpose (namely, to prefigure the Messiah)? I think I have answered this one. Just because I follow Torah does not mean that I follow the covenant at Sinai, I follow the New covenant. Remember what Jer 31 which is quoted in Heb 8 that in the New covenant, God will write the Torah on the hearts. You said; And can't the word "Torah" also refer to general moral instruction and not specifically the Pentateuch? This is partially correct. The Torah are the teachings of God which include moral, civil, sacrificial, dietary, clothing, farming, etc. basically it is a whole lifestyle. Abraham knew the Torah (Gen 26:5 where the word laws is actually the Hebrew word Torah) He did not know the covenant at Sinai but he did follow the Torah including sacrifices. You said; Regarding the Trinity, according to you, how does the Kabbalah's notion of the Trinity differ from that of the Nicene and Athanasians Creeds? How does my view differ from the Creeds? To be honest, I think the trinity limits God, I do confine him to three but to many more. Also the Holy Spirit which is Ruach HaKodesh in Hebrew literally means the breath of the holy one. The spirit is synonymous with breath in Hebrew. It is his breath that moves us. All of the manifestations of God are just that. Manifestations of him in different forms and character. Shalom Joe and thanks for the discussion. Simchat Torah |
||||||
3 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53464 | ||
You wrote: "Prior to this, as I believe it, Jews and Gentiles were following the Torah." Well, you have failed to show that conclusively. What evidence are you putting forth to demonstrate the validity of that claim? You wrote, in reference to Acts 15: "The question about whether they were to put the yoke of burden on them which they themselves could not keep is referring to the oral torah, additional commands which are not found in the Bible." That doesn't make sense for a number of reasons. First of all, Jesus during his ministry made it clear that the mishna and other oral traditions were the commandments of men and not those of YHWH. Therefore, the issue of an aprocryphal "oral Torah" wouldn't have been an issue for either Jewish nor Gentile Christians. Secondly, Acts 15:5 makes it clear that it was the Law of MOSES that was the issue, not any additional teachings. Verse 9 and 11 juxtapose the grace of God and the faith of the Gentiles with the proposition of the Pharisees in verse 5. There is absolutely no evidence that any extra-biblical commands were the ones in question. You wrote: "These Gentiles are babys and are told 4 things they should start doing (these were probably big problems in the communities they came from). Then it says that Moses is taught in the synagogues each Shabbat. It was understood that they would learn more about the Moses, and the Torah at the Shabbat services." No, I think you have this wrong. Again, we have no indication that the imposition of the directives from Jerusalem is "Torah 101" to be followed by successive stages. This would not be in keeping with God's requirements for Jews to keep the entire Law. And notice that these command, which you correctly state as being elements of the Pentateuch, are referred to as a BURDEN here, just as in the preceding verses. And what James is saying here is that these impositions are not for the sake of purification, but rather because there is a Jewish presence in the larger cities from ages past. There is no indication that the Gentiles participated in the synagogue services, only that they existed where Gentile Christians were. And that is the reason the Council of Jerusalem directed the Gentile Christians as it did. You wrote: "To many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an intity to itself." Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified. You wrote: "Abraham knew the Torah (Gen 26:5 where the word laws is actually the Hebrew word Torah)" I am aware that "Torah" means "law." However, it does not always mean "THE Law" (i.e. the Law given through Moses). You are arguing from the conclusion you have already made, rather than demonstrating that your conclusion is a valid one. You wrote: "To be honest, I think the trinity limits God, I do confine him to three but to many more." If you allow "many more," than you do not confine Him to three. It is the same word for breath and Spirit in Greek as well. You speak of the Holy Spirit as merely a manifestation of God, while the Scriptures attribute much more. Is Jesus just a "manifestation" of God, or is He God? What other "manifestations" would you include in this "polyinity"? --Joe! |
||||||
4 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53467 | ||
Dear Joe……in response to a healthy debate between you and Simchat….I would like to add my two shekles. Simchat said: "Too many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an entity to itself." You said: “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified.” Dt 4:5-8 (below) indicates that one of the functions of Torah was to witness to the nations the superiority of the LORD and His ways: Dt 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Torah was supposed to have an affect upon people outside the covenant, but never imposed upon them. Just like people all over the world hear about the United States and want to come here and live under our system, our Constitution, I believe Israel was supposed to so move other people……to entice them to become an Israelite, or pattern their nation after Israel’s example and live under Torah, Israel’s constitution. This is the pattern prescribed for THE LAST DAYS in Isa 2:2-3……notice, the Torah is not a mandate externally imposed on the nations, the nations are enthusiastically seeking the Torah: Isa 2:2 “In the LAST DAYS days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and ALL NATIONS will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (notice “Torah” and “the word of the LORD” are synonymous). Does the New Covenant with Israel have any implications for the people outside the New Covenant people of Israel? No……..except as mentioned above for the Old Covenant……outsiders are free to join up, just as they are in Isa 56:6. The Torah must carry over to the New Covenant and not go away with the Old because it is the mainstay of the N.C. (Jer 31:33)……Torah is in your minds and your hearts. In fact, I can’t understand how anyone can bad mouth the Torah and say they are “New Covenant people”……. The New Covenant IS only for Israel and Judah. (Jer 31:31)…and Torah is in your mind and heart (Jer 31:33)….if one fails to meet either of these criteria….it is impossible to be His New Covenant people. continued next........ |
||||||