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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Simchat Torah | 53273 | ||
Shalom Joe; Thank you very much for the welcome. I was recently introduced to this forum and have found it very interesting. It is always great to discuss scripture from differing point of views. I find it interesting that Christians have such a wide range of views when it comes to the Torah, some say they are still in effect while others say they are not. Others say they are only for the Jews and not for the gentiles. I find your belief that the moral laws are still for us today refreshing, after all who knows morality better than God himself. I actually hold to a more stricter view of Torah than most in this forum and would like to share a couple of observations from the scripture with you and others. You said in your post; For us, as post-Christ people of God, the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Law have been abolished (Ephesians), because Jesus as our mediator makes unnecessary the ceremonial rituals to approach an infinitely holy God (Ephesians 2:13-16), and because Hebrews 10 makes clear that the sacrifices were but a foreshadowing of the atonement that is found in Christ alone. Let me post what Yeshua said in Matthew 5; 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. According to Yeshua, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth are destroyed and that we are to teach them. About the sacrifices, we do not do sacrifices today because the Temple is not standing. But when it was, even Paul was there doing sacrifices as we see in Acts 21. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. The believers in Yeshua were still zealous for the law. The passage continues stating that these zealots for the law have heard that Paul was teaching against the law and that to prove them wrong they ask him to take part in a Nazarite vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. To show them that he still followed Torah, he participates in the vow which included the offering which according to Numbers 6 is a male lamb, a female lamb and a ram; 13 "'Now this is the law for the Nazirite when the period of his separation is over. He is to be brought to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 14 There he is to present his offerings to the LORD: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, 18 "'Then at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the Nazirite must shave off the hair that he dedicated. He is to take the hair and put it in the fire that is under the sacrifice of the fellowship offering. About your final questions. No I am not physically descended from Abraham but do call him my father. Not only does Yeshua exhibit the profile of “prophet” but he is the promised prophet of Deuteronomy 18:15. I do believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, but I find it interesting that the idea of a coming “Messiah”was a Rabbinic tradition rather than Biblical, while the Bible calls the coming one a “Prophet”. I do have a slightly different view of the Trinity than most Christians. I do subscribe to a Trinitarian view of YHWH, though my understanding of the Trinity comes from the Kabbalah (the probable origin of the Christian idea of a trinity). Shalom Joe and thank you for the great discussion. Simchat Torah |
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2 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53382 | ||
Greetings, once more. I am in the middle of leading a missions/evangelism week for 85 teens, so I am not able to follow this interesting discussion as much as I would like. I will respond to a couple of things just in passing. You wrote: "I find it interesting that Christians have such a wide range of views when it comes to the Torah, some say they are still in effect while others say they are not." Well, I think it comes down to the fine distinctions that some people can;t/won;t make. While I do hold that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law have found their fulfillment in Chirst (as well as Him fulfilling the moral requiremenets in our stead), I still have not found one Christian who denies the moral law's use can answer this question: "What can we do to please God that is not contained in the moral law of God?" The answer is, of course, nothing. God shows us how to please Him in the law, and while this is not a basis of our justification, the moral aspects of the law are important for our sanctification (Psalms 19 and 119). One other thing I wanted your input on: you cited Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount and his comments regarding the law. How do you think that is reconciled with Acts 15, in which the apostles did not require the Gentile converts to live as Jews? And what do you do with the book of Galatians, which is Paul's longest treatment of how the Judaizers are wrong to try and convince the Gentile converts to be circumcized and become subject to the covenant at Sinai? And the book of Hebrews, which seems to say that the Mosaic Covenant has served its purpose (namely, to prefigure the Messiah)? And can't the word "Torah" also refer to general moral instruction and not specifically the Pentateuch? Oh, one more. :) Regarding the Trinity, according to you, how does the Kabbalah's notion of the Trinity differ from that of the Nicene and Athanasians Creeds? Thanks again! --Joe! |
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3 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Simchat Torah | 53392 | ||
Shalom Joe; While most Christians see the moral laws of God as good and for them today, they draw the line at anything that is “jewish”. This is actually a result of the Bar Kockba revolt of 135 AD. Prior to this, as I believe it, Jews and Gentiles were following the Torah. When the Romans began killing the Jews because of the revolt, the Gentiles said, we are not Jewish and to show it stopped doing anything “Jewish”. These included the Shabbat, feasts and Kashrut (dietary laws). This resulted in the Christians observances of Sunday, Christian feasts such as Christmas and an elimination of Kashrut and began eating swine. You said; How do you think that is reconciled with Acts 15, in which the apostles did not require the Gentile converts to live as Jews The basic question in Acts 15 is are they to convert and be circumcised or not, they said no, they do not need to covert. The question about whether they were to put the yoke of burden on them which they themselves could not keep is referring to the oral torah, additional commands which are not found in the Bible. If you will notice that there descision included 4 things from the Torah. Torah is like a teaching of a parent, you do not teach a two year old how to clean the house, you start with little things and build on that. These Gentiles are babys and are told 4 things they should start doing (these were probably big problems in the communities they came from). Then it says that Moses is taught in the synagogues each Shabbat. It was understood that they would learn more about the Moses, and the Torah at the Shabbat services. You said; And what do you do with the book of Galatians, which is Paul's longest treatment of how the Judaizers are wrong to try and convince the Gentile converts to be circumcized and become subject to the covenant at Sinai? The problem that Paul was facing was that some Jews were still trying to live by the covenant that was given at Sinai which has ended. He is trying to explain to them that the covenant is over and that they do not follow the Torah according to the covenant at Sinai, but according to the new covenant. To many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an intity to itself. The covenant at Sinai did incorporate the Torah but made it a binding contract rather than a teaching which is its original intent. You said; And the book of Hebrews, which seems to say that the Mosaic Covenant has served its purpose (namely, to prefigure the Messiah)? I think I have answered this one. Just because I follow Torah does not mean that I follow the covenant at Sinai, I follow the New covenant. Remember what Jer 31 which is quoted in Heb 8 that in the New covenant, God will write the Torah on the hearts. You said; And can't the word "Torah" also refer to general moral instruction and not specifically the Pentateuch? This is partially correct. The Torah are the teachings of God which include moral, civil, sacrificial, dietary, clothing, farming, etc. basically it is a whole lifestyle. Abraham knew the Torah (Gen 26:5 where the word laws is actually the Hebrew word Torah) He did not know the covenant at Sinai but he did follow the Torah including sacrifices. You said; Regarding the Trinity, according to you, how does the Kabbalah's notion of the Trinity differ from that of the Nicene and Athanasians Creeds? How does my view differ from the Creeds? To be honest, I think the trinity limits God, I do confine him to three but to many more. Also the Holy Spirit which is Ruach HaKodesh in Hebrew literally means the breath of the holy one. The spirit is synonymous with breath in Hebrew. It is his breath that moves us. All of the manifestations of God are just that. Manifestations of him in different forms and character. Shalom Joe and thanks for the discussion. Simchat Torah |
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4 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | Reformer Joe | 53464 | ||
You wrote: "Prior to this, as I believe it, Jews and Gentiles were following the Torah." Well, you have failed to show that conclusively. What evidence are you putting forth to demonstrate the validity of that claim? You wrote, in reference to Acts 15: "The question about whether they were to put the yoke of burden on them which they themselves could not keep is referring to the oral torah, additional commands which are not found in the Bible." That doesn't make sense for a number of reasons. First of all, Jesus during his ministry made it clear that the mishna and other oral traditions were the commandments of men and not those of YHWH. Therefore, the issue of an aprocryphal "oral Torah" wouldn't have been an issue for either Jewish nor Gentile Christians. Secondly, Acts 15:5 makes it clear that it was the Law of MOSES that was the issue, not any additional teachings. Verse 9 and 11 juxtapose the grace of God and the faith of the Gentiles with the proposition of the Pharisees in verse 5. There is absolutely no evidence that any extra-biblical commands were the ones in question. You wrote: "These Gentiles are babys and are told 4 things they should start doing (these were probably big problems in the communities they came from). Then it says that Moses is taught in the synagogues each Shabbat. It was understood that they would learn more about the Moses, and the Torah at the Shabbat services." No, I think you have this wrong. Again, we have no indication that the imposition of the directives from Jerusalem is "Torah 101" to be followed by successive stages. This would not be in keeping with God's requirements for Jews to keep the entire Law. And notice that these command, which you correctly state as being elements of the Pentateuch, are referred to as a BURDEN here, just as in the preceding verses. And what James is saying here is that these impositions are not for the sake of purification, but rather because there is a Jewish presence in the larger cities from ages past. There is no indication that the Gentiles participated in the synagogue services, only that they existed where Gentile Christians were. And that is the reason the Council of Jerusalem directed the Gentile Christians as it did. You wrote: "To many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an intity to itself." Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified. You wrote: "Abraham knew the Torah (Gen 26:5 where the word laws is actually the Hebrew word Torah)" I am aware that "Torah" means "law." However, it does not always mean "THE Law" (i.e. the Law given through Moses). You are arguing from the conclusion you have already made, rather than demonstrating that your conclusion is a valid one. You wrote: "To be honest, I think the trinity limits God, I do confine him to three but to many more." If you allow "many more," than you do not confine Him to three. It is the same word for breath and Spirit in Greek as well. You speak of the Holy Spirit as merely a manifestation of God, while the Scriptures attribute much more. Is Jesus just a "manifestation" of God, or is He God? What other "manifestations" would you include in this "polyinity"? --Joe! |
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5 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53467 | ||
Dear Joe……in response to a healthy debate between you and Simchat….I would like to add my two shekles. Simchat said: "Too many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an entity to itself." You said: “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified.” Dt 4:5-8 (below) indicates that one of the functions of Torah was to witness to the nations the superiority of the LORD and His ways: Dt 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Torah was supposed to have an affect upon people outside the covenant, but never imposed upon them. Just like people all over the world hear about the United States and want to come here and live under our system, our Constitution, I believe Israel was supposed to so move other people……to entice them to become an Israelite, or pattern their nation after Israel’s example and live under Torah, Israel’s constitution. This is the pattern prescribed for THE LAST DAYS in Isa 2:2-3……notice, the Torah is not a mandate externally imposed on the nations, the nations are enthusiastically seeking the Torah: Isa 2:2 “In the LAST DAYS days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and ALL NATIONS will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (notice “Torah” and “the word of the LORD” are synonymous). Does the New Covenant with Israel have any implications for the people outside the New Covenant people of Israel? No……..except as mentioned above for the Old Covenant……outsiders are free to join up, just as they are in Isa 56:6. The Torah must carry over to the New Covenant and not go away with the Old because it is the mainstay of the N.C. (Jer 31:33)……Torah is in your minds and your hearts. In fact, I can’t understand how anyone can bad mouth the Torah and say they are “New Covenant people”……. The New Covenant IS only for Israel and Judah. (Jer 31:31)…and Torah is in your mind and heart (Jer 31:33)….if one fails to meet either of these criteria….it is impossible to be His New Covenant people. continued next........ |
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