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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | First Century Second Coming? | John 5:19 | Xerxes | 128226 | ||
Listen Angel, you aren't saying anything I haven't heard before. Nor are you saying anything that I potentially disagree with. I expressed clearly that I am not disposed to either position. Personally, I see holes in what you are saying. I don't know if you read all my posts on this subject. I gave a reasonable explanation on the "coming in clouds" that you have not acknowledged, and I see no reason to express it a second time. Also, your Corinthians example is clearly talking about the dead being glorified in new bodies because the bodies we have now are mortal and cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Now, in part one, I feel the need to say that I resent you implying that I am "luke warm," and will thus, according to the scriptures, be spewed out of Christ's mouth. Being undecided due to a lack of understanding about the Revelation does not make me "neither hot nor cold." My walk with God is plenty strong, and I am an active Christian. I am by no means complacent or lazy about what I believe, what I study, or what I do with the knowledge I have. Confusion over apocalyptic literature is not an uncommon thing, and I would exhort you to refrain from judging others in regard to such literature. I recognize and acknowledge your position on the matter, but the preterist position makes a strong case as well. Both sides have been studied and researched by scholars for hundreds of years. Preterism is not a minority sect. It is just as prominent as its rival, and I choose not to put on blinders against either position. I would exhort you also to purchase some books on the subject of preterism so you may learn in greater detail what the position is, what sources they take from, how they explain certain key passages, etc. A good book I can recommend is "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. There are also a few by Dr. David? Chilton. (You'll have to double check that first name). A Revelation study is not as cut and dry as you might like to make it. Each person is disposed to a particular view based on whichever argument seems most credible to them. You find the premillenialist argument most credible. Dr. Gentry, a pastor with a degree, and Dr. Chilton, also a pastor with a degree, find the preterist argument more credible (this is not to imply or suggest that you are not qualified or certified, only that Drs. Gentry and Chilton are not blowing smoke because they read two passages and twisted them, but are in fact well read and have degrees to prove it). I appreciate the time you've put into your reply. I read it thoroughly, gave it consideration, but have determined that you are either unwilling or unable to discuss this topic objectively, so I will put an end to it here before it turns to strife. Again, I thank you for the time you put into your response. It was not ignored. Xerxes |
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2 | First Century Second Coming? | John 5:19 | JCrichton | 128256 | ||
""Paul (and who am I to second guess Paul?) was warning his first century audience, THEY should fully expect Jesus to return to THEM. Was he misleading them? Jesus was to return like a “thief in the night”, but his followers would not to be caught unaware. They would see it coming, they would NOT be surprised!" Hi, Fatherof4! I see that it is futile for me to attempt to wrench you from what you so firmly believe... you insinuate that I bend Scripture to serve my interpretation, and yet you interpret Scripture with your own sense of finality... Have I understood you correctly... do you mean to say that we no longer need to be at our best in fear of Christ finding us behaving as the unrighteous servant? Do you mean to state that we are living in the New Jerusalem or do you mean to state that Christ's Second Coming came and left and there was no one to document His arrival? We must learn to read Scripture with a humble heart and mind... allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us to God's Truth! Maran atha! God Bless! Angel" Hi, Xerxes! On my final post to Father of 4 I closed, as far as I am concerned, this thread: He will never convince me of his choice of Second Coming... and I can never convince him to read Scripture and accept Scripture rather than man's interpretation of Scripture. You tagged this post, which I though would be my final one on this matter, and offered a duality of responses which in effect issues forth the ole "I'm OK, you're OK" complacency... The Jehovah Witnesses hold that Christ is a mere human with somewhat "gifted and talented" superhuman abilities... they cite, erroneously, their interpretations of Scripture on which they base their idiologies... the fact is that I cannot meet them half way! Christ is either God or He is not! It is the same for this topic: Christ either came and went or is yet to come; sadly even the Apostles believed, for a while, that Jesus' Coming would be within their lifetime... Did not happened! This became a hot topic within the Church... to the point that Peter, Paul and others had to issue writings indicating that the Lord's Coming had not taken effect and that His delay was due to two factors: a) God's Way is not ours (1000 years but 1 day), and b) He is Coming, yet He is patient--wanting that all (as many as will believe in Him) be saved! You cannot see this, for this I cannot apologize! But you did note my forcefulness in offering both Scripture and personal understanding of the Second Coming and you were offended by some of my statements, for that I apologize! I do want to remind you of part of your statements: “The questions were to provoke to edification.” I do not judge you, your words judge you--you presented an argument for both sides to consider as fact... this in essence simply serves to neutralize the argument: which neutralizes the doctrine of the Second Coming! I cannot agree with you on both counts! If it were simply a matter of scholars' inference we would certainly be in a heep of trouble--as those scholars in Jude and Peter who are but emptiness, wind, clouds being led by whatever surfaces into their circle of "intellect." This is a matter of Faith--we either accept Scripture or we do not. For this reason I referenced Jesus' words in Revelation! There is no double-mindedness in the Apostles! They were misled by their human intellect to think that Jesus stated that He would certainly come again within their lifetime, yet when taught by the Holy Spirit that to God "imminent" does not mean a specific amount of "human" time but rather the very next act within the Divine Plan, they accepted this Truth and made it known to the discples that the Lord's Coming is imminent but within God's Plan! Again, I apologize for any hurt that my words may have caused you--not being a scholar, I tend to allow my arguments to reflect my conviction without seeking to negociate Scripture by accepting the arguments that may seem to offer logic... My resolution comes from the various assaults on Christ's Divinity where many issue forth impelling arguments based on their interpretation of some Scripture passages while ignoring all of the Scripture that command that we Worship and Glorify Christ, the Eternal Emmanuel, the God of the Amen, the One who holds everything in His hands! Maran atha! God Bless! Angel |
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3 | First Century Second Coming? | John 5:19 | Xerxes | 128269 | ||
Hi Angel. I am not suggesting or implying complacency. If Christ already came, I'm living my life accordingly as it befits a Christian living in the Kingdom of Christ. If He has not come, I am ready for his arrival. Whether or not I look up at the sky when he appears in the clouds is not relevent. He will not leave me behind because I was taking a nap. Point of fact, if He came back right now, he would find me typing to you, exploring and discussion a topic of His word. He would find two open Bibles, and several other books of reference and study ready at hand. If Christianity suddenly became illegal, I would be convicted on all counts, and there is so much evidence of my faith in my house that I could not possibly dispose of or hide it all. What you consider clear cut scripture requires a distortion of the scriptures to explain why Jesus did not return in the lifetime of the Apostles when He stated clearly that He would. Preterists have to distort the scriptures to explain why there is no physical evidence of the return. The internal evidence of the Bible does not lean towards a "two-thousand-year-later" return. It leans towards an immediate return. But a lack of apparent happening causes us to reevaluate what is written plainly. So again, I would recommend that you educate yourself a little bit on the preterist point of view. There is a lot of evidence to that position, and while I have not made a decision on my personal position, I find that the preterist scholars make a lot of valid, competent, and credible arguments. Please don't think less of me for choosing not to stand on one or the other without sufficient evidence for either. You seem to believe that what you interpret as the only way to see the scriptures is absolute. You are not the only person being guided by the Holy Spirit. I myself have prayed on this subject in order to understand it better. I'm sure the scholars that write books towards a preterist point of view have prayed too. Now, I am not a Jehovah's Witness, so I don't think that need be brought into this. The only disagreement you and I have is that I choose to remain undecided regarding the apocalypse without solid proof one way or another since both arguments are credible. Let's let our disagreement stay there and agree to disagree. I don't want to be at strife with you. I just want to exercise my right to not make a decision on this particular matter. Upon all other matters related to the Bible, my doctrine is quite firmly rooted in conviction. First and foremost being that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God in the flesh, that he was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, and on the third day rose again from the dead, and that he is ascended to heaven and seated at the right hand of power. Thank for some good discussion, Xerxes |
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