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NASB | Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Revelation 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice]. |
Subject: Whose will causes a believer to sin? |
Bible Note: Hi Tim, Concerning your first point: I may have confused you a bit by, seemingly, contradicting myself. But it was not deliberate or even an actual contradiction; it was a failure on my part to fully explain myself in the previous post. For that, I apologize. I had said "That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good." This is what I was attemting to show. I had used Acts 4 to make my case for God's pre-ordination of "all things". I used Romans 8:28 to make the case that "all things" must include the sins of the saints. As to your following comment, "I say that He HAS died for all and HAS shown mercy to all". John 6 and Romans 9 do not support universal atonement. Furthermore, the scriptures we have been discussing make a strong case for God's absolute soverignty in in all things, including keeping His elect from failling to perservere til the end. Moving on...you said "Secondly, even if your understanding of this verse is correct (in the sense that man's will played no part whatsoever), it still doesn't prove (as you state in your last post) that "EVERYTHING that has or will occur" has preordained. It would only proof the the murder of Christ was preordained, since that is the only act specifically mentioned in this verse. The word 'all' isn't used here! ;-) and "You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." But when have I ever said that man's will played no part whatsoever (in Acts 4 or rom 8 or anywhere else)?... What I said was the natural man does not have the ability to choose spiritual good. He also has no desire to please God. Pilate, Herod, the Jews and Gentiles who gathered together against Christ (acts 4) of their own free will (free in the sense that it was not forced or coerced by any power outside their own selves) murdered the Lord of Glory. And they did it because it was the strongest desire of their own wicked hearts. The idea that fallen man retains some spark of spiritual good within himself is every where contrdicted by Sripture itself! God, on the other hand, had pre-ordained each and every action that occured; right down to the minutest of details. BUT He meant it for the salvation of an innumerable multitude (i.e., His elect). Your third point, regarding God's soveiegnty and man's responsibility, is quite interesting. It seems as if the arminians have convinced themselves that they have figured it out! Congratulations! :-) You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." Your statement that Calvin denied free-will is also wrong. As calvinists, we believe that the Bible teaches that man is free to follow the desires of his heart. Of course (and as you well know) the Bible takes a dim view of the heart of unregenerate man. That is why it takes a miracle of grace before anyone has the ability to choose spiritual good (salvation). They first must recieve spiritual life (born again or born from above) "Not by the will of man but of God. John 1:13 You brought up the subject of Adam and Eve. You said: "If every act is a result of God's ordained plan, then God must be the author of sin. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, so one cannot simply claim that they 'willing' sin in accordance with their sin nature. God must have MADE them sin"...."This is why Arminians ridicule, as Jonathan Edwards claimed, this view of God's will. One cannot believe that God 'ordains' every action and choice, and not have Him responsible for sin. He created us. He ordained our choices. But, He is not responsible for our choice?" Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory. Those whom He has passed by (the reprobate) were created to glorify God's justice and those who He chose (the elect) were created to glorify His mercy. Romans 9. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-23 God Bless, John |